Megathread : Immigration In Victoria 2

[Niptium]

Notwithstanding the fact that most of the questions concerning Victoria were about immigration (how to get it), I'm looking forward as how Paradox is going to handle this in the sequel. The Pops system was very good at modelling demographic shifts and changes with some minor hiccups (for example, if you played Argentina, all your immigration would go in La Rioja instead of Buenos Aires because it was a bigger province and closer to the Pacific since Pops found it easier to make the western route since there was a lesser number of provinces that way).

These little hiccups would probably be sorted out by having Pops drawn to your provinces with the biggest population, most urbanized provinces and also where more space is available (for farmers, per example) and where liferating is the best which would avoid the Alaskan demographic paradise which never was in reality. The pathfinding algorithm could also be tweaked so that distances wouldn't be calculated in provinces but in another - more realistic - unity of measure that doesn't end up with the same results as in Victoria 1.

 

[unmerged(102005)]

I think that immigrants should go to states/provinces which aren't necessarily LARGER, the way they were in the original game, but rather which match their ideology and/or religion well, and which have the most accepting attitude toward foreigners. This way we would end up with more historic immigration centers in every example I can think of. Internal migration should be toward open jobs, whether in an RGO or factory.

As for pathfinding, I think it's a given that it will be fixed. EU3 had some very good pathfinding connected to colonization.

 

[likk9922]

If you ask me, there's two ways which are fairly simple but will aid this HUGELY.

1) The designation or ability to designate provinces as "Urban Centers", which attract immigrants at a much greater rate than the surrounding state.

2) Making it more appealing to POPs to immigrate to provinces where people of their religion and nationality have already immigrated to.

 

[rjf101]

1) The designation or ability to designate provinces as "Urban Centers", which attract immigrants at a much greater rate than the surrounding state.

But don't forget that this would leave provinces like Topeka with a 100% Cherokee population of 16,000, for example. Maybe foreign immigrants should be more attracted to cities, but people migrating within the country would go to rural provicnes? After all I think most settlers out west were descendants of immigrants/Americans, not right of the boat.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

A big factor should be how many pops from your own country are in a province already. Immigrants tend to go where there is already others form their country for the support network, to meet up with family members, etc. Its not conincidednce that even today when Irish people go to the US they tend to go to Boston and NY, as opposed to Austin and LA.

 

[Cinéad IV]

However Paradox decide to model immigration, I would love for it to be 100% moddable.

 

[alvaro]

But don't forget that this would leave provinces like Topeka with a 100% Cherokee population of 16,000, for example. Maybe foreign immigrants should be more attracted to cities, but people migrating within the country would go to rural provicnes? After all I think most settlers out west were descendants of immigrants/Americans, not right of the boat.

it should be that you could attract inmigrants building your nice metropolis and once there use domestic managed migration to redistribute.
what i found really annoying in 1 was those hardcoded migrations like, all Asturias/Galicia pops always go to Cuba, Castilians go to Valencia, inmigrants in Argentina always go to La rioja, not a soul will move from spain to philipines but if you occupy Borneo it looked like pops got 72 virgins just by settling there...and this just from the top of my head. it was a matter of getting to know how the engine was playing with me rather than me playing with the engine.

 

[unmerged(48056)]

Immigration has never been hard coded in Victoria. The closet you get to hard corded immigration are the events which create POPs in Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

 

[Rodrico Stak]

Immigration has never been hard coded in Victoria. The closet you get to hard corded immigration are the events which create POPs in Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

Actually, didn't USA get a hardcoded boost to immigration, America (the continent) also getting such a boost, and Europe being impossible for outside POPs to immigrate to?

 

[unmerged(48056)]

Actually, didn't USA get a hardcoded boost to immigration, America (the continent) also getting such a boost, and Europe being impossible for outside POPs to immigrate to?

The bonus wasn't that extreme in revolutions. I've played as Australia (Oceania receives no boosts or penalties) and my end game population is always larger than the United States

 

[OHgamer]

The problem with most of these ideas is that it becomes difficult to get POPs to move away from intial landing cities (New York, Montreal, Buenos Aires, Cape Town, Sydney) and settle out in the countryside. As noted, this means that while you might get accurate polyglot emigrant centers on the coast, you fail to get patterns that settle the inland areas very well - never mind Topeka, how do you get POPs into Chicago or Winnipeg when you start a game in 1836 and they have their historic levels of infra development - ie close to 0.

there is also a second issue here - how to balance internal migration within European states with the pull of emigration to the overseas. You don't want all of your surplus population going overseas, you need to have a good portion of it migrating to newly-industrializing centers in Europe (and Japan) as well. So there are actually 2 issues that need to be balanced here.

The biggest problem with V1 is that the approach to migration was a universal one that was supposed to fit all countries, with an additional bonus to the USA so that it could rise itself to the powerhouse it became by 1920. Unfortunately this one size fits all pattern created too many irregularites. Unfortunately, whatever rules are developed will probably still end up with glaring exceptions that can't be accounted for.

 

[OHgamer]

The bonus wasn't that extreme in revolutions. I've played as Australia (Oceania receives no boosts or penalties) and my end game population is always larger than the United States

AUstralia and New Zealand did get boosts in Revolutions, smaller bonus than what USA had, but they (and Canada) did get additional boosts to draw emigrants.

Problem is that it is attached to the nation tag, so unless you free them as Britain, your POPs will not migrate to the dominions. Hopefully if regions are ported in from HoI3 something could be done to tie migration desirability to specific regions rather than countries.

 

[Skyman]

Perhaps life ratings could be more differentiated and have more of an effect? I always found it weird that Alaska ended up with a much bigger population than Washington/Oregon because it had oil and gold while they had lumber.

 

[Niptium]

AUstralia and New Zealand did get boosts in Revolutions, smaller bonus than what USA had, but they (and Canada) did get additional boosts to draw emigrants.

Problem is that it is attached to the nation tag, so unless you free them as Britain, your POPs will not migrate to the dominions. Hopefully if regions are ported in from HoI3 something could be done to tie migration desirability to specific regions rather than countries.

May I ask, as forum moderator and also main guy of the VIP Mod what would you like, OhGamer to be implemented/changed/modified as far as immigration goes in Vicky2?

 

[unmerged(148761)]

If you ask me, there's two ways which are fairly simple but will aid this HUGELY.

1) The designation or ability to designate provinces as "Urban Centers", which attract immigrants at a much greater rate than the surrounding state.

2) Making it more appealing to POPs to immigrate to provinces where people of their religion and nationality have already immigrated to.

I do like the urban designation idea. It always bugged me that cities never really seem to grow in the game via immigration. It leads to a strange feeling game if you play the US in the GC, as cities like Chicago, Detroit, etc will only expand due to natural growth, as they aren't very attractive to immigrants.

There should be a big penalty to RGOs in an urban province though. A lot of the biggest cities of the period (London, France, St Pete's, NY) all produce grain, and most of their POPs are farmers, which I always thought was kinda silly, even in 1836.

 

[Skyman]

I like the idea of RGOs shrinking in potential as more factories are built in the province. Then you'd get the farmers either converting into craftsmen, or moving within the country to fresh land (which might help with the lack of people moving West in America currently).

 

[unmerged(56465)]

Actually, didn't USA get a hardcoded boost to immigration, America (the continent) also getting such a boost, and Europe being impossible for outside POPs to immigrate to?

It's not impossible actually, just very difficult.

Anyway, it seems to me that craftsman/clerk immigrants should be drawn to cities, while farmers should be drawn to the countryside.

 

[unmerged(42174)]

I never saw it that way in V1, concerning urban migration.

Rather, I regarded the promotion of farmers to craftsmen as the urbanization of the game, moving people from the countryside into the growing cities in each of the provinces. That is the result of having factories in state level, that pops don't have to leave their home provinces to urbanize.

Playing the US was a bit difficult when it came to building up the inner states. Most immigrants came to California, Texas and Alaska, and most of them were always assimilated rapidly. Since Yankee was a short range culture, they never moved very far within the nation, and that caused some problems. However, these problems were in fact mostly cosmetic, since the location of industries did not matter to productivity.

Some changes could be made, however. Factories could be built on province level; RGO expansion could be limited (the area of a province does in fact limit the possibilities of farming, and provinces with small population and lots of "free" farm land should be attractive to immigrant farmers); short range and long range cultures could be replaced by individual pop factors (Yankees should be able to move from coast to coast if nescessary, for example).

 

[Garek Maxwell]

Something very minor and small, but I would like it if migration to cities was more possible, especially for industrializing nations. I think it should be possible for a historically backwards nation that civilizes and industrializes to have people move towards the city centers just as it happened elsewhere in different places.

For example, if as Sokoto I industrialize a particular area heavily, I think that there should be migration to those industrial centers so that I'm not just sitting on empty factories for the entire game. It probably shouldn't be extreme shifts, but by the end of the game an ahistorically industrialized nation should at least be able to be in competition with other smaller industrialized countries on the map. This isn't really possible under the old system, where pops may never move if they're too far away, yet a European power can have a farmer pop move halfway across the world and it's not a problem.

Perhaps an entirely separate formula for internal migration would be better?

 

[unmerged(96516)]

i liked the immigration part in victoria

i hope they add to this, like skilled farmers having the effect : increasing output of crops or cattle for a region. for example