[Megathread] Golden Century - is this it?

[Chazb5046]

Sooo,

Will we ever get a DLC for Spain? That reforms some of the things integral to the history of Spain beside colonization? Or is this it till Eu5? That’s really a terrifying thought. Will we ever get a decent catholic monarch/catholic immersion update? Or an update to the Iberian Wedding, Dutch Rebellion and the Burgundian Inheritance?

Or is this it?

Seriously genuine genuine question?

 

[cristofolmc]

Sooo,

Will we ever get a DLC for Spain? That reforms some of the things integral to the history of Spain beside colonization? Or is this it till Eu5? That’s really a terrifying thought. Will we ever get a decent catholic monarch/catholic immersion update? Or an update to the Iberian Wedding, Dutch Rebellion and the Burgundian Inheritance?

Or is this it?

Seriously genuine genuine question?

We had to wait 5 years for it in EU4. And I dont think the game will last for another 5, so I think our best chance is with EU5

 

[Strigoi Tyrannus]

I think you're confusing artists and content designers. Artists deal with graphics. Event pictures, loading screens, unit sprites, icons, interface, etc.

Content designer is the one responsible for script-related stuff. Like events, decisions, missions, map, etc. Though they still rely on programmers for script support. And EU4 has only one. Though additional can be brought from other projects if needed.

I'm not talking about art.

 

[Golladan]

I'm not talking about art.

I know you're not. I didn't quote your post. =/

 

[Franciscus123]

I just reviewed the DD which introduced the holy orders and the map changes to the Americas, and even though I know the latter were needed, I am quite angered again at how much interest they actually put into this region at the neglect of Iberia. A shame.

 

[El Overlord]

The key to the question is the clash between the expectations of the people for this DLC and what has been offered.

We can be punctilious about each of the characteristics of the DLC, for example: that if the religious orders should be exclusive or not of the Iberian nations, if the absence of the units models of the Iberian powers is a pity or not, if mission trees should be bigger or different or not, if there should be more or less provinces and what should be, etc.

But the big problem with this DLC is that it has not fulfilled the expectations generated by the players in aspects that the players consider fundamental.

Why has this happened?

Let's start by what they have offered:

Minority Expulsion: Settle your distant colonies with homeland minorities, promoting greater cohesion at home, while adding more diversity to your subject nations.

Establish Orders: Iberian nations can appoint Jesuit, Franciscan or Dominican clerics to govern their states to reduce unrest or ease conversion ..

New Mission Trees: New missions and objectives for the nations of Iberia and Northwest Africa, including Spain and Andalucia.

Pirate Republics: Play as or combat against pirate nations in dangerous sea zones, with their own flavor and game style.

Flagships: Appoint a Flagship to lead your navy, adding combat and power to your fleets.

Naval Barrage: Use your ships to help besiege coastal forts by bombarding the walls.

New Iberian Army Units: 20 unique infantry units for Granada / Andalucia, Navarra, Leon / Galicia, Salé and Pirates.

New Iberian Ship Models: 17 new ship models for the Iberian nations (Portugal, Spain, Aragon, Navarre, Galicia, Leon, Andalucia and Granada.)

New Berber Ship Models: 17 new ship models for Berber nations (Morocco, Tlemcen, Algiers, Tunis, Fezzan, Mzab, Toggourt, Djerid, Tripoli, Tafilalt, Sus, Fez, Salé.)

New Music: 10 to 12 minutes of original music inspired by the discovery of the New World.

Are these mechanics of poor quality or content is not enough for the price they ask for it?

The answer is no and no.

I am sure that the art, music and mechanics have been done professionally, taking into account the balance of the game systems and the fun when playing with them (in the case of mechanics).

And I am sure the 10 euros that costs the dlc are worth and well deserved all the effort that the Paradox team has done in doing every detail of the dlc.

If the content is of quality and has a fair price, why has not satisfied the expectations of the players to the point of feeling disappointed with the dlc?

The reason for all this discomfort is that the content is poorly focused.

This dlc is supposed to be an Iberia immersion package, Iberia is a peninsula in the southwest of the European continent. In this peninsula the most interesting countries at the beginning of the game are Castilla, Portugal, Aragon, and Granada, with Spain later. And in the space of time between the middle of the XV century and the beginning of the XIX century, the historically most important countries are Spain and Portugal.

So the players expected that about 80% or 90% of the DLC was focused on these five countries, giving more importance to the two most important (Spain and Portugal) with the aim of improving their representation in EU4.

This was the general expectation among the players the day that paradox made the dev diary with the image of the cadiz bay announcing a new dive package.

Now compare expectations with reality

Minority Expulsion: generic mechanics, in addition to being more consistent with the Protestant countries (England or the Netherlands) than with the Iberian countries.

Establish Orders: mechanics for ibericos with loose flavor

New Mission Trees: Iberian trees (for the main Iberian countries (with the case of the Spanish tree very imprisoned in the historical achievements) and Magrebies trees that are not part of iberia.

Pirate Republics: generic content that has nothing to do with the Iberian Peninsula (if with the Caribbean and the Maghreb), in addition to being more consistent with the Protestant countries (England or the Netherlands) or with the Magrebies than with the Iberian countries. Not to mention that it is seen that it has taken a large amount of time, staff and resources of this dlc

Flagships: generic mechanics with loose flavor.

Naval Barrage: generic mechanics with loose flavor.

New Iberian Army Units: removing grenade, and navarra that exists at the beginning, just add one more, and shared above, which is galicia / leon. Caribbean and Berber pirates, regardless of how you look at them, are not Iberian.

New Iberian Ship Models: mechanics for ibericos with loose flavor

New Berber Ship Models:

New Music: the part of the song that I heard from the first look, from a personal point of view, I liked it.

In short, removing granada, this dlc enriches Spain, Aragon, Castile and Portugal too softly, besides that a large portion of the content is not even centered on the Iberian peninsula (representation of the Moorish population, a special government for Spain / ibericos, a special unit such as thirds, etc.) nor in the events that took place in it (wars to unify it dynamically, wars of independence of the peripheral regions, war of Spanish succession, etc), nor by the actions of the Iberian nations (racial miscegenation in America, defense of Catholicism in France and the HRE, war of influence against the Ottomans by the Mediterranean domain, etc).

What's more, if we change our point of view and change the name of the dlc to the century of piracy, and put Jack Sparrow in the dlc photo, the valuation of the dlc changes radically.

Minority Expulsion: generic mechanics, promotes American cultural diversity and the expulsion of criminals from Europe, which fosters this scenario of pirates of the Caribbean.

Establish Orders: does not have much to do with pirates

New Mission Trees: Iberian trees that represent the victims to loot and magrebies trees that represent the pirates of the Maghreb.

Pirate Republics: great star content.

Flagships: generic mechanics that favors naval warfare, important for pirates.

Naval Barrage: generic mechanics that favors naval warfare, important for pirates.

New Iberian Army Units: removing grenade, and navarra that exists at the beginning, just add one more, and shared above, which is galicia / leon. Caribbean and Berber pirates, regardless of how you look at them, are not Iberian.

New Iberian Ship Models: visual characteristic for ibericos with loose flavor and with a certain resemblance to the original version.

New Berber Ship Models: visual caratarestica that has nothing to do with iberia

New Music: the part of the song that I heard from the first look, from a personal point of view, I liked it.

In short, a great pirate dlc.

I would invite paradox to reflect on what it should be and what should not be inside a package of immersion of any region.

 

[Turbo215]

GC is a genuine disappointment in my opinion, a sorely missed opportunity to improve colonial game-play, the new world and Iberia. It feels like the recent DLC have been leading this way for some time now, but for me personally this is the final nail in the coffin and as such this will be the first DLC I will not be buying. Truly sad because I do believe paradox have their player's interests at heart and I would love to support them, but quite frankly I cannot justify it to myself to spend the money. I just feel that EU4 is beginning to reach a point of no return, I had such high hopes when estates were made a free feature and yet practically nothing has been done for them, it just seems like many features are copied from DLC to DLC with only minor changes (e.g. 3 buttons, click for instant reward etc) and add very little to no actual depth but merely bloat the game.

I hope that paradox prove me wrong, but I fear they will not.

 

[Piotrzeci]

Golden Century is as it is. There isn't really a possibility of changing it now. I think we should just accept, that it isn't a satisfying product and either suggest small changes, that still could be implemented without changing anything in the implemented features or let it be like it is. GC won't be made good and there just isn't a point to suggesting any new features or complete new approaches to the ones already suggested.

And while the community should just kinda forget about the whole thing, the Devs should not. Voting with wallet on one Immersion Pack by basically only the users of forum isn't that big of a deal, but the problem is in lost trust. People will forgive flaws in products by a game producer they like, but if trust is lost (and it was), then we can expect a lot of complains for future content (just look at how many disagrees any post by the devs has). The next expansion just has to be a satisfying product and for that it has to be well thought and well executed.
A bunch of disconnected uninteresting features, which each seem to take half an hour to code in are just not the thing we want to see. I can speak for myself and if the future product will have good planning and ideas behind it and there will be no going the easy way to add them in (So there will be a significant effort to translate the good idea into a good mechanic, without reducing it into something uninteresting), then the next thread I'll create will be of praise. After all this thread is mine and it just comments on added features (I also did one for Dharma back when it came out). Causing hype is definitely not my intention, but if there won't be much to honestly complain about, then the thread will surely discourage dismissing the expansion, in opposition to "It's your choice, but don't" kind of gist.

It's unfortunate the expansion isn't meeting expectations, but it's necessary to look at it as an example of what not to do, because the loss of customers' trust can only snowball and anti-hype certainly isn't good for anyone.

Edit: for comparison we can take a look at Stellaris (it's DLC had an enormous amount of work put into it and it paid off, but there is more and it can be in an expansion regardless of it's scale) where the lead idea was "Let's do a good job". If the devs honestly will try to make good content, that the players want to see (after all they are played too and can see, that it isn't exactly it) then it will be appriciated and noticed. Most ideas were fine, but their final implementation really lost all charm (Holy Orders could be renamed to governor's policies and there would be a difference for example). There was a need of more critique view while developing to say, that it doesn't really satisfy and doesn't follow the "Let's make a good game" approach.

It's also necessary to look closer at the idea of Immersion Pack. I would argue they are not needed and are a pretty bad idea, but it is just my opinion. What isn't subjective, is that there needs to be a definition for one, if they are going to still be created. If an ImmP is loosely defined, then objective judging of it isn't really possible. With a clear points made of what it's purpose is, what makes it differ from a DLC, what makes a DLC differ from it, how should it change gameplay (for everyone, just for everyone interacting with the region or maybe just for countries in said region). All ImmPacks had their flaws and luckily in different ways; by looking at what the complaints for each of them was, there is an opportunity to better plan next ones.

To sum up, I hope there will be more attention put into next expansion, but also that the community will calm down and won't dismiss next DLC without giving it a chance.​

 

[Franciscus123]

The key to the question is the clash between the expectations of the people for this DLC and what has been offered.

We can be punctilious about each of the characteristics of the DLC, for example: that if the religious orders should be exclusive or not of the Iberian nations, if the absence of the units models of the Iberian powers is a pity or not, if mission trees should be bigger or different or not, if there should be more or less provinces and what should be, etc.

But the big problem with this DLC is that it has not fulfilled the expectations generated by the players in aspects that the players consider fundamental.

Why has this happened?

Let's start by what they have offered:


Are these mechanics of poor quality or content is not enough for the price they ask for it?

The answer is no and no.

I am sure that the art, music and mechanics have been done professionally, taking into account the balance of the game systems and the fun when playing with them (in the case of mechanics).

And I am sure the 10 euros that costs the dlc are worth and well deserved all the effort that the Paradox team has done in doing every detail of the dlc.

If the content is of quality and has a fair price, why has not satisfied the expectations of the players to the point of feeling disappointed with the dlc?



Now compare expectations with reality



What's more, if we change our point of view and change the name of the dlc to the century of piracy, and put Jack Sparrow in the dlc photo, the valuation of the dlc changes radically.



I would invite paradox to reflect on what it should be and what should not be inside a package of immersion of any region.

Mismanagement of expectations entirely. Putting the Europe back into Europa sure thing.

 

[bigaristotel]

39:06 my fav part

sums up current situation quite nicely

 

[basun]

I really think the devs misjudged how important the community think that Iberia is to the game. Finally the area should get some attention and.. it's not much. A button for catholic orders, small changes to NI (but not for Portugal - which is a huge thing to miss).

Sure, the changes to the berber nations are nice.

But the more like meme value of pirate republics, flagships and naval barrage at the cost of a deeper Iberian experience feels like someone misjudged what is wanted for ANY game ie better Iberian nations.

I sure hope they understand that what is NICE to have (like the one playthrough as a pirate) is less important than having crucial nations performing decently.

 

[basun]

this is not the answer but maybe help

39:06 my fav part

Wow, that answer is just really terrible. Someone ask a legitimate question and he doesn't recieve any real answer except "yeah, deal with it".

 

[Zephyrum]

I think you're confusing artists and content designers. Artists deal with graphics. Event pictures, loading screens, unit sprites, icons, interface, etc.

Content designer is the one responsible for script-related stuff. Like events, decisions, missions, map, etc. Though they still rely on programmers for script support. And EU4 has only one. Though additional can be brought from other projects if needed.

Paradox games have credits for each expansion. You should check who is working where.

No developer has said what you're saying.

According to Neondt, severla weeks ago, he was the sole content designer, and that he was "soon" getting a second member on his team.

Whether that member has arrived or not - that's still a VERY small CD team right there.

 

[bigaristotel]

Golden Century is as it is. There isn't really a possibility of changing it now. I think we should just accept, that it isn't a satisfying product and either suggest small changes, that still could be implemented without changing anything in the implemented features or let it be like it is. GC won't be made good and there just isn't a point to suggesting any new features or complete new approaches to the ones already suggested.

And while the community should just kinda forget about the whole thing, the Devs should not. Voting with wallet on one Immersion Pack by basically only the users of forum isn't that big of a deal, but the problem is in lost trust. People will forgive flaws in products by a game producer they like, but if trust is lost (and it was), then we can expect a lot of complains for future content (just look at how many disagrees any post by the devs has). The next expansion just has to be a satisfying product and for that it has to be well thought and well executed.
A bunch of disconnected uninteresting features, which each seem to take half an hour to code in are just not the thing we want to see. I can speak for myself and if the future product will have good planning and ideas behind it and there will be no going the easy way to add them in (So there will be a significant effort to translate the good idea into a good mechanic, without reducing it into something uninteresting), then the next thread I'll create will be of praise. After all this thread is mine and it just comments on added features (I also did one for Dharma back when it came out). Causing hype is definitely not my intention, but if there won't be much to honestly complain about, then the thread will surely discourage dismissing the expansion, in opposition to "It's your choice, but don't" kind of gist.

It's unfortunate the expansion isn't meeting expectations, but it's necessary to look at it as an example of what not to do, because the loss of customers' trust can only snowball and anti-hype certainly isn't good for anyone.

It's also necessary to look closer at the idea of Immersion Pack. I would argue they are not needed and are a pretty bad idea, but it is just my opinion. What isn't subjective, is that there needs to be a definition for one, if they are going to still be created. If an ImmP is loosely defined, then objective judging of it isn't really possible. With a clear points made of what it's purpose is, what makes it differ from a DLC, what makes a DLC differ from it, how should it change gameplay (for everyone, just for everyone interacting with the region or maybe just for countries in said region). All ImmPacks had their flaws and luckily in different ways; by looking at what the complaints for each of them was, there is an opportunity to better plan next ones.

To sum up, I hope there will be more attention put into next expansion, but also that the community will calm down and won't dismiss next DLC without giving it a chance.​

I couldn't have said it better myself

 

[Gyrvendal]

What's more, if we change our point of view and change the name of the dlc to the century of piracy, and put Jack Sparrow in the dlc photo, the valuation of the dlc changes radically.

No, just no. Just changing the name of the DLC would not make it any less lackluster in content.

 

[Bayes]

I am not overjoyed with the dlc, however, as far as immersion packs goes, it is not lacking that all. Please look up third rome and rule britannia wiki pages for comparison.
Also wasnt it the exact same situation with third rome where russia didnt get new models? Same with rule britannia aswell?

 

[Franciscus123]

I am not overjoyed with the dlc, however, as far as immersion packs goes, it is not lacking that all. Please look up third rome and rule britannia wiki pages for comparison.
Also wasnt it the exact same situation with third rome where russia didnt get new models? Same with rule britannia aswell?

It is lacking. The features do not relate to the area that is supposedly being covered, and the accompanying free features, in the form of map changes and new NIs show a complete lack of research or interest from the development team. Also, really, 3 new flavor events?

 

[Bayes]

It is lacking. The features do not relate to the area that is supposedly being covered, and the accompanying free features, in the form of map changes and new NIs show a complete lack of research or interest from the development team. Also, really, 3 new flavor events?

It is absolutely not lacking, but it is not as concentrated on iberia wich is what people expect.
Can we recognize the severe amount of mixed messaging paradox are recieving aswell?
First they heard that the immersion packs were too focused and didnt give much to the rest of the world, and now it is the opposite.
Not saying the criticism isnt fair, but I think you can see what they were going for.

 

[Franciscus123]

It is absolutely not lacking, but it is not as concentrated on iberia wich is what people expect.
Can we recognize the severe amount of mixed messaging paradox are recieving aswell?
First they heard that the immersion packs were too focused and didnt give much to the rest of the world, and now it is the opposite.
Not saying the criticism isnt fair, but I think you can see what they were going for.

I see your point, but they chose their timing poorly then. First dlc to directly address Iberia in 5 years and they pull this off, yes they will piss off a lot of people. And I think that has shown in the forums, especially today. The region glaringly needed a facelift to improve gameplay.

 

[Will Steel]

Personally, I loved Dharma. India being a very important historical region had needed dev attention for years. It came with enough content like government reforms, monsoon tropical season system, trade tweaks for Asia and loads of more provinces in India (a place which was really lacking in them) and the long-awaited Mughal Empire rework. I don't know about you, but for me it was a great DLC that I have wanted for years. Well worth the price tag and undeserving of all the neckbeardy hate it gets for no reason.

But that is where the love stops. I son't like how everything has become a mana-fest now. They tack on mechanisms over existing mechanisms without caring about how well they integrate with each other. You have corruption that somehow doesn't affect stability or unrest. Sufism VS legalism causes no religious tension. Naval tactics affect nothing of note. There are several government types that repeatedly retcon each other because of bad leftover stuff.

Golden Century? I like the concept, and pirate republics sound really interesting, but man this DLC is so weak.

Naval warfare is extremely boring in EU4, and a lot of times even building ships is useless. You can add barrage ability or flagships, but it won't change the boring basic mechanisms the entire thing is built on.

Pirate republics? Good concept but won't work unless AI can play them as well as the player. And naval warfare is already boring, so their entire purpose is to pillage and loot.

Expulsion of cultures to colonies? Didn't that kind of thing happen in 19th century (Victoria timeline) instead? Religious was the driving factor of that "explusion" in Europe, and not culture. Besides Moriscos had to flee to the Islamic world, not Americas.

Also, there are so many still existing bugs/bad programming with culture.
- "Promoted" cultures should be allowed to run for power in all republics/elective monarchies. After all that is their entire purpose, and promoted cultures are regarded equal to your base culture in all regards.
- "Accepted" cultures in empires should get you generals and advisors, but not election candidates or rulers.
- Non-accepted cultures should stay limited to providing a small amount of soldiers and sailors for your military.
- Mughals should be able to get advisors and generals from every culture they get in their lands.

...And expulsion is what they chose to make instead of fixing this?

But what about the Hacienda estates and Feitorias, or diseases they spread across the Americas? What about improved ways of acquiring Goa and Macau from Vijayanagar and Ming respectively? What about their influence and religious maneuvering in Japan? What about Spanish hyperinflation that resulted from mass gold and silver trade, and caused its currency to bloat and collapse in the Caribbean? What about colonial revolutions in these two empires? What about Andalusian resurgence and the fact that those beautiful models won't be of any use if Granada falls as quickly as it does?

And I know this is not worked upon usually, but what about improvement of later start dates for timeline of Emperor Charles V and 30 Years' War Spanish-Netherlands rivalry? Or Napoleonic invasion of Spain and subsequent transfer of government to the Americas and such?

As I said, this DLC is weak. It will need a lot more features to be worth anything.