Megathread: Ahistorical Nations

[berkeleyboi]

I think if Taiping is to be included, it should be called "Taiping Tianguo/Taiping Tienkuo" rather than Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, because as far as I know Taiping is not a Kingsom (in sinosphere,being a kingdom means the nation is a vassal of an empire IIRC), nor an empire, but the heaven itself(Tianguo=Heaven)! The name is also convenient considering the fact that a heaven can be a monarchy or republic, whereas a kingdom cannot be a republic at the same time

Calling the state just as "Taiping" is fine for me, but it is like calling UK as "United", since "Taiping" is not a proper noun.

Taiping Heavenly Kingdom is a fine name since that is the English translation most often used. I mean by your logic, if you're going to translate everything from Chinese directly, then 'China' should be called 'Middle Country', Tokyo would be called 'Eastern Capital', and the United States would be called 'Beautiful Country'.

 

[LordInsane]

Brittany? Nah, that one wouldn't fly. Brittany's independence ended with the Treaty of Union of 1532, more or less. And while it retained a regional identity, making it a national entity would be too much of a stretch.

Not necessarily. A lot of the nationalism going around in OTL were... somewhat arbitrary... and in any case, Brittany is one of the few areas of France where the regional identity was actually strong and different enough that it actually could motivate a national perspective, given certain specific, unlikely, circumstances. So... on the unlikely part, but not necessarily unlikely enough (especially given that players might want to dismember France at least a little bit, and Brittany may be the only semi-plausible portion that actually could last beyond the bayonets of the dismembering state).
Also, there were nationalist in the area in OTL.

 

[Bezborg]

Croatia is certainly a feasible nation in the second half of the 19th century. It is during this time that Croatian nationalism started to form , alongside other nationalist awakenings in the Habsburg Empire locally, and alongside emerging pan-Slavism globally (in a manner of speaking). During this period the term "Croatia" had begun to encompass all of the territories that it holds today as home soil to a sovereign nation. This nationalism had several fractions, some wanted a sovereign Croatian nation (not very successful until after WWI), most wanted (and succeeded) a bigger degree of self-government within the Empire. The group that supported a Croatian state outside of the Empire later developed into 2 groups - one was pan-Slavic, mostly an academic argument that all Slavs should unite under a single flag (more popular in orthodox countries such as Serbia and Montenegro); the other was south-Slavic (later proved to be the most successful), which eventually led to the unification of south Slavs after WWI...

All in all this proposes several interesting solutions for south-Slavic (or indeed, pan-Slavic, in an alternative setting) nations in Vicky2.

A comment on several proposals in this thread about forming a pan-Balkan union: it should be noted that this is utterly absurd to say in the least. Never have the south-Slavic nations had anything remotely common to Greeks in terms of national sovereignty, other than liberation from the Turks, and even then it was each on their own terms. So you can count out the Greeks from any pan-Balkan union you might want to implement into the game under the pretense of realism. The only big union you can imagine is some kind of proto-Yugoslavia, uniting the Catholic (Croatia and Slovenia) and Orthodox (Serbia, Montenegro) Slavs. Note that I'm excluding Bulgarians, who were more concerned with their own hyper-nationalism outside the realm of possibility of a Balkan unification project. It was always most popular with nations under Habsburg rule, or nations within immediate range of their shiny Imperialistic boot

 

[Bezborg]

I suppose that sovereignties abolished by Napoleon are a good alternative option, a kind of revival some 50 years later... Somebody already mentioned that the Venetian Republic is already included... I'd like to add the Republic of Ragusa (Dubrovnik in their-and my own-language). They were "powerful"* enough to be "independent"* from Turks for centuries, I'd have no reservations about seeing it revived in the first half of the 1800s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ragusa

* the reason for all the quotation marks is that these terms are highly disputable

 

[Gorgo Primus]

Brittany? Nah, that one wouldn't fly. Brittany's independence ended with the Treaty of Union of 1532, more or less. And while it retained a regional identity, making it a national entity would be too much of a stretch.

Euskadi, perhaps ?

You do relise how stupid you sound saying this right? Its akin to saying:

"Ireland as a country? Impossible, that wouldn't fly. Ireland's independence ended with the Acts of Union 1800, more or less. And while it retained a regional identity, making it a national entity would be too much of a stretch."

Just because Brittany, unlike Ireland, lost its war for independence doesn't mean it never had a independence movement. Brittany has always had a sizable group who wanted to break away and still does.

 

[Duuk]

Keep in mind that in this thread we're not talking about "nations that should be created by event" but only "revolters".

That means for an independent Brittany to form, basically France would be in the middle of a civil war with Brittany rebel controlled for a year (I think?).

 

[khannate]

Taiping Heavenly Kingdom is a fine name since that is the English translation most often used. I mean by your logic, if you're going to translate everything from Chinese directly, then 'China' should be called 'Middle Country', Tokyo would be called 'Eastern Capital', and the United States would be called 'Beautiful Country'.

Paradox do not always name a country by the most common English word for it. e.g. Japan is Nippon in EU2. But yes, what you are saying is quite reasonable. Anyway, I found out that the title of Taiping monarch literaly means "Heavenly King" so Taiping Heavenly Kingdom is not a bad translation. However, as I said in Vicky that Taiping Heavenly Kingdom can become a republic, and it just sounds ridiculous(Ottoman empire had the same problem in Vicky1). That's the main reason why I propose the alternative naming for the nation.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

In a similar vein, I'd prefer 'Ottoman Empire' to be called Turkey. No nation should have a name shackled to a particular form of government, unless we get dynamic names in Vic 2 to go with the dynamic flags in Vic 1 - which would be nice.

 

[unmerged(113756)]

plz...Louisiana....it wld b great to hav it as a nation

 

[An Elder Thing]

It technically did exist, the Republic of New Iceland did not do much existing. So I suggest that it should be in for the small chance of existing beyond its small tenure.

 

[Andrelvis]

plz...Louisiana....it wld b great to hav it as a nation

Seconded. I would also like to see a France Antarctique for the case of a colonial revolter in a French-dominated Rio de Janeiro

 

[LordInsane]

In a similar vein, I'd prefer 'Ottoman Empire' to be called Turkey. No nation should have a name shackled to a particular form of government, unless we get dynamic names in Vic 2 to go with the dynamic flags in Vic 1 - which would be nice.

Overlap in existence, and in any case the Ottoman Empire was quite a different beast from Turkey.
They could always change the name of the Empire to the Sublime State, if they wanted to avoid the implications of Empire and Ottoman.

 

[linkthewindow]

Overlap in existence, and in any case the Ottoman Empire was quite a different beast from Turkey.
They could always change the name of the Empire to the Sublime State, if they wanted to avoid the implications of Empire and Ottoman.

Or just include a series of events that depict the falling-apart of the Empire, and it's transformation into Turkey. Would only happen after a major defeat (think WW1) or internal rebellion/strife.

 

[unmerged(61296)]

You do relise how stupid you sound saying this right? Its akin to saying:

"Ireland as a country? Impossible, that wouldn't fly. Ireland's independence ended with the Acts of Union 1800, more or less. And while it retained a regional identity, making it a national entity would be too much of a stretch."

Just because Brittany, unlike Ireland, lost its war for independence doesn't mean it never had a independence movement. Brittany has always had a sizable group who wanted to break away and still does.

Ooh, starting a post with a personal insult, nice ! I'm sooo sorry if I hurt your little FLB/ARB dreams, Gorgi....

Britanny's independence did end after 1532, and particularly after the French Revolution which substituted to old ideas of provincial identity the new idea of a national identity. While Britanny could have retained its independence in an ATL (why not indeed), the point of divergence with our timeline would be way beyond the scope of Victoria 2. That's why you find the Blanche Hermine flying in EU3 and not in Victoria or in Hearts of Iron.

Comparing Ireland with Britanny, like you do, is indeed quite a stretch, GP : where are Britanny's crowbar brigades, Britanny's Black and Tans, Britanny's IRB ? As for Britanny always having had a "sizable group who wanted to break away and still does", it does strike me that this "sizable group" never manifested itself in any noticeable way, when compared to Basque or Corsican autonomists, to say nothing of Ireland.

Perhaps you were referring to the brave lads of Atao Breizh, Bezenn Perrot and the Bagadu Sturm, those fine Bretons who thought the Third Reich was better than the Third Republic ? They're the only example of active "independentist" action that I can think of, and they never represented anyone but themselves...

****

As for potential breakaway French provinces I'd stick with the French Basque country (as part of Euzkadi) and perhaps Corsica. The other provinces, nah, not if there's supposed to be some historical reality behind the ahistorical nation.

If you take some French provinces, like Poitou, Burgundy, Provence and Britanny, they all have a rich history of independent or semi-independent entities. They all have cultural specificities harking back to the dawn of man, starting with the existence of regional languages or dialects since in Vicky era public education hasn't stamped these out. They all have architectural specificities, agricultural/gastronomical specialties, and province flags, but steep-sloped roofs, hillside mas farms and regional headgear do not a nation make IMHO.

So, an independent Britanny in Vicky 2? Sure, if the idea is to do away with historical plausibility to get more nations, why not. In fact, then why stop here, every group of provinces could be played as an independent nation, because at some point of history or other, they probably enjoyed some degree of independence/distinctive identity. The Aquitaine, from Poitiers to Bayonne, comes to mind, and Burgundy, that Middle-Ages heavyweight, should have a chance to spring back from the history books...

 

[Gorgo Primus]

I didn't personally insult you, I just said that you made a stupid argument. And you still are. There are plenty of politcal parties in Brittany atm who want independence and there always have been. The fact that some Bretons tossed in their lot with the Nazis in the hope of independence doesn't really mean much in this context other then that the wish for independence is across the political spectrum. You seem to have some sort of personal issue with Bretons...

 

[OHgamer]

Let's keep the thread civil, folks.

And in the end, given the ease of moddability of the Clausewitz engine, it will be fairly simple for players to add in whatever revolters they so wish if they are not included in the base game.

Check out the Magrathea mod for HoI3 - it's added well over 100 new user-made nations for use in that game. I expect similar kinds of flexibility will exist in V2.

So in the end there's no sense quibbling about whether a revolter/fantasy nation should exist or not, if you want it in your own personal game, just make it for yourself.

 

[unmerged(61296)]

I didn't personally insult you, I just said that you made a stupid argument. And you still are. There are plenty of politcal parties in Brittany atm who want independence and there always have been. The fact that some Bretons tossed in their lot with the Nazis in the hope of independence doesn't really mean much in this context other then that the wish for independence is across the political spectrum. You seem to have some sort of personal issue with Bretons...

My point is, was, and remains, that unless it's a game feature without any pretentions to historical accuracy (in which case sure, why not?), an independent Bretagne in the 19th century seems a lot less likely, to say the least, than an independent Ireland, to use your own comparison. Different conditions bring different results - hence the absence of a Breton Easter Rising, a Breton Michael Collins, or French Black and Tans, or sack of a Breton Cork, the absence of rebellions against central rule, etc, etc. Call that stupid if you like, Gorgo. I'll just call it History.

And no, I don't have any personal issue with Bretons, actually, having family ties with the region myself, not to mention a good many of friends who are part of the Breton diaspora exiled throughout Western France, GP.

There was something I read about the revolts that did rang true, and which I'd link to the idea that we could have a-historical nations pop up : instead of occupying provinces passively, if rebels focused on "contaminating" the provinces belonging to the same region, then we could have these regions spring into new nations?

That could make policing one's own colonies and even homeland provinces a top priority, along with making sure the population's militancy is kept low enough ? I've always regretted that in HoI the colonial Empire was 100% safe from dissent, while in Vicky you could at least get revolts to keep you on your toes. Now we could have 19th-century independence movements and liberation fronts, putting the player controlling a colonial power in face of the real-life dilemma of fighting them at mounting costs or letting go.

 

[Gorgo Primus]

Thats because the rising you mention happened for Brittany during the Napoleonic era.

All I am saying is that Brittany should be included as a possible revolter. That is all I ever said in here. It's you who started ranting about how it was impossible for it to be included.

 

[jamhaw]

My point is, was, and remains, that unless it's a game feature without any pretentions to historical accuracy (in which case sure, why not?), an independent Bretagne in the 19th century seems a lot less likely, to say the least, than an independent Ireland, to use your own comparison. Different conditions bring different results - hence the absence of a Breton Easter Rising, a Breton Michael Collins, or French Black and Tans, or sack of a Breton Cork, the absence of rebellions against central rule, etc, etc. Call that stupid if you like, Gorgo. I'll just call it History.

The whole point of this game is that it is not entirely constrained by "History" it is quite possible that events in the game would lead to results differing from history such as Scotland becoming independant or Deseret breaking away, the Basques founding an independant state or Texas building an empire to the Pacific, these are all events where even if they did not happen historically there was some chance of them occuring (and regardless many players would like the oportunity) and the game should allow us to play like that.

One good point earlier was that it is quite concievable that players would wish to break France up and Brittany is one of the most likely nations to be founded in such a carveup (indeed France is pretty much the only nation that could not be efficiently divided up between different nations in Victoria, Italy Germany and Britain and the last one especially was even less likely to be carved up than France considering the weakness of Scottish nationalism and the strength of the Royal Navy during the period, still having Scotland as a potential revolter is a good idea).

 

[byzantium43]

How about Paradox actually gets all the REAL nations in first, and then worries about imaginary countries?