Megastructures should be late game tech -- not ascensions

[Jazzbanana]

Basically what the title says. In my opinion it always felt off that megastructures, a -although sophisticated- work of engineering, are locked behind one (two) ascension perks. It seems to me like a feature that every empire advanced enough should be able to research, in contrast with psi, bio, synth or every other perk that implies a specific cultural path/focus.
Why not make megastructures individually researchable, free up an ascension slot, and retain Master Builders to encourage focused and flexible builds? Keep them locked behind tech requirements, keep them late game and keep them costly, and their niche will stay the same.
What do you think? I feel that with more and more megastructures coming, Galactic Wonders is taking a weird place amongst the other ascensions, giving a bundle of eight (!) strong buildings of which you will usually build just two or three. I'd like it better if I could prioritize the one I need according to build, territory resources and galactic situation.

 

[Dmitrius]

I've honestly never not taken megastructures.

 

[Onkel_Bums]

Someone else already proposed splitting up Megastructures between Perks and make them available earlier, which in my opinion would add to the weight of ascension perks and Megastructures and their intended role in gameplay of shaping the civilization. Making them locked behind tech is not as interesting, I think.

Have a look here:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/reimagining-ascension-perks.1145726/

 

[Vitruvian Guar]

Someone else already proposed splitting up Megastructures between Perks and make them available earlier, which in my opinion would add to the weight of ascension perks and their intended role in gameplay of shaping the civilization. Making them locked behind tech is not as interesting, I think.

Both these approaches can and, in my opinion, should be combined. You pick the ascension perk representing the focus of your society. And the megastructure is the embodiment of such focus. So in the end, when you research megaengineering and the distinct tech for the megastructure you can build it.

 

[Kain2K]

I agree partially. Most Megastructures should be independent of the Ascension Perks, and should be locked behind technologies, maybe even behind a certain ethic (or some ethics could exclude certain Megastructures). But I think the Ringworlds, maybe even the Dyson Sphere and the Matter Decompressor should stay locked behind an Ascension Perk. Those are things you don't just stumble upon. You need the technology to deconstruct whole Planets, get unsettlingly close to a star or black hole. And you need to activelly look for those. I see those things more like some kind of technologycal ascension, because it is the creme de la creme of your technological advance. Only an empire that totally focuses on technological advancement should be able to construct those, and for things like that do the Ascencion Perks exist. I agree, that an advanced structure that functions as a research center or a command center is something that, every empire, maybe depending of its ethics, should have access to.

 

[Jazzbanana]

.

Someone else already proposed splitting up Megastructures between Perks and make them available earlier, which in my opinion would add to the weight of ascension perks and Megastructures and their intended role in gameplay of shaping the civilization. Making them locked behind tech is not as interesting, I think.

Have a look here:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/reimagining-ascension-perks.1145726/

I am aware of the thread yes, and a lot of useful things have been said there but I must say that I disagree about splitting them in different ascension perks.
From a RP point of view because it's engineering. Nuts and bolts. Not the ardent desire and the capacity of your people to trascend the material plane.
And from a mechanic point of view, because the tradition trees/available slots are so few that I can't afford to spend two just to have a dyson sphere and a matter decompressor, and a third one to build them faster.

 

[Onkel_Bums]

.
I am aware of the thread yes, and a lot of useful things have been said there but I must say that I disagree about splitting them in different ascension perks.
From a RP point of view because it's engineering. Nuts and bolts. Not the ardent desire and the capacity of your people to trascend the material plane.
And from a mechanic point of view, because the tradition trees/available slots are so few that I can't afford to spend two just to have a dyson sphere and a matter decompressor, and a third one to build them faster.

Well it would add flavour if you would actually have to choose which type of Megastructures you have, as you already pointed out, and I am of the firm belief that a civ should not have more than 2 types actually reachable by perks and techs per game.

 

[The Boz]

Both these approaches can and, in my opinion, should be combined. You pick the ascension perk representing the focus of your society. And the megastructure is the embodiment of such focus. So in the end, when you research megaengineering and the distinct tech for the megastructure you can build it.

Pretty much what I was going for.

 

[Olterin]

I agree partially. Most Megastructures should be independent of the Ascension Perks, and should be locked behind technologies, maybe even behind a certain ethic (or some ethics could exclude certain Megastructures). But I think the Ringworlds, maybe even the Dyson Sphere and the Matter Decompressor should stay locked behind an Ascension Perk. Those are things you don't just stumble upon. You need the technology to deconstruct whole Planets, get unsettlingly close to a star or black hole. And you need to activelly look for those. I see those things more like some kind of technologycal ascension, because it is the creme de la creme of your technological advance. Only an empire that totally focuses on technological advancement should be able to construct those, and for things like that do the Ascencion Perks exist. I agree, that an advanced structure that functions as a research center or a command center is something that, every empire, maybe depending of its ethics, should have access to.

Basically this - megastructures, the truly big ones, warrant an entire ascension path unto themselves. One that can sit proudly alongside the three classical ones. They are not something you just stumble upon, much less so than an Ecumenopolis ... which I don't see anyone arguing against being an Ascension Perk. What could be done to truly set them apart and into their own category is to offer (significantly) weaker versions of said structures via tech to all empires (while buffing megastructures where needed), since it makes sense that an interstellar empire would eventually build large structures in space to support their infrastructure, beyond the scale of "just" starbases. Basic habitats would then fall into this category. But the truly gigantic undertakings that require taking whole planets apart, or encasing a star in full ... they present challenges that just aren't tackled by regular technology in the game thus far. For example, to dismantle planets, you need an ascension perk in the form of Colossus.

There is an argument to be made to change how Voidborne works, and how Master Builders can be unlocked, and perhaps shuffle the megastructures around... but not one that can be feasibly supported beyond "I want muh toys and all the other pretty ascension perks too" for just rolling them all into tech.

Personally, I'd shuffle Ring Worlds and Habitats into Voidborne, with Ring Worlds further requiring Master Builders... and habitats attained this way receiving significant buffs (their main issue is that they have zero access to buildings that offer more than 2 jobs short of conditional ones like the upgraded Gene Clinic or the Numistic Shrine). The Science Nexus would be rolled into Technological Ascendancy with Master Builders, etc. The common theme would be Master Builders being a requirement along with one other ascension perk to build the truly gigantic ones. This way, your empire would have access to megastructures that make sense in light of the other ascension perks selected. But under no circumstance should such powerful structures be available merely via tech.

 

[Jazzbanana]

since it makes sense that an interstellar empire would eventually build large structures in space to support their infrastructure, beyond the scale of "just" starbases. Basic habitats would then fall into this category. But the truly gigantic undertakings that require taking whole planets apart, or encasing a star in full ... they present challenges that just aren't tackled by regular technology in the game thus far.

Interesting proposition keeping some of the best ones/more gigantic projects in galactic wonders, didn't think of that.

They are not something you just stumble upon, much less so than an Ecumenopolis ... which I don't see anyone arguing against being an Ascension Perk.

Much could be said about ecumenopolises and colossi too, but a topic at a time, I feel.

but not one that can be feasibly supported beyond "I want muh toys and all the other pretty ascension perks too"

This is not the argument. I don't want to be the "strongest empire ever!!1!" and bitching on the forums because of that. I sincerely believe it's for the better, both from a RP and a gameplay perspective, or I wouldn't have posted this. You have every right to disagree and I will always welcome discussion, but please don't minimize my points mocking them.

 

[Olterin]

This is not the argument. I don't want to be the "strongest empire ever!!1!" and bitching on the forums because of that. I sincerely believe it's for the better, both from a RP and a gameplay perspective, or I wouldn't have posted this. You have every right to disagree and I will always welcome discussion, but please don't minimize my points mocking them.

My apologies, I should've chosen my words more carefully. My point here, however, remains this: Ascension Perks are a part of the game as it stands right now. The Ascension Paths are an amalgamation of "culture" and "technology", changing how the game works, while the other perks largely offer percentage bonuses to already existing game components. So far so good. As far as I can tell, the game-changing Ascension Perks are the ones most-coveted by people for RP reasons, and the more powerful ones among them also for gameplay reasons. These are: Ecumenopolis (Arcology Project), Ascension Paths (Machine Ascendance, Psionic Ascendance, Biological Ascendance), Megastructures (Voidborne, Master Builders, Galactic Wonders), Machine/Hive Worlds, Colossus Project (mostly for the total war CB), and, to a lesser degree, Enigmatic Engineering and Nihilistic Acquisition. All the other perks fall into the "filler" category right now (with the possible exception of Gaia terraforming, don't know, hard to tell in practice when it's a little broken - and not very impactful at first glance).

To outline my personal bias:
For me personally, I tend to play tall empires (mostly because I don't have time/patience to manage 30+ planets all growing at the same time), and thus end up taking most of the abovementioned. A usual list of Ascension Perks for me is Voidborne, Gene Ascension #1, Arcology Project, Master Builders, Galactic Wonders,Gene Ascension #2, Tech Ascension (filler), Colossus Project/second filler (Mastery of Nature is a common one). With this build I can quite comfortably have a first full megastructure up by 2350 (sooner if I don't have to deal with early aggressive neighbors, I've had them up as early as 2330), ready and supporting my economy to deal with the crisis, and a Ringworld in progress to deal with the looming population problem. At the same time, my tech isn't quite up to repeatables in Engineering at this point. You're proposing to absolutely kill this possibility, neutering 2 (or 3, depending on how you count) of the 6 AP picks, since lategame tech would enable megastructures becoming available no sooner than 2350 (usually), and thus coming fully online no sooner than 2400, far too late for the resource ones to have an impact on being able to deal with the endgame crisis and/or AFEs.

With this in consideration, and the reasoning you give for your proposal taken at face value, the logical conclusion is that you are calling into question the very essence of what (the interesting) Ascension Perks are at the moment. Keep in mind that unless further restrictions are in play, as the game currently stands, all empires will research all technologies by the lategame. By making megastructures available via tech, you seek to make them more common rather than something that sets an empire apart from others.

As far as RP goes: it took the Fallen Empires presumably a long time to reach the stage of technological development they're at - and yet, not all of them have megastructures. It stands to reason, then, that as far as current Stellaris lore goes, not all empires obtain the knowledge necessary to build megastructures. Is this logically sound, from an out-of-game science-fiction perspective? Perhaps not (I would be among the first to cry out "why don't they all have multiple Dyson Spheres?!?"). But it is the current ingame lore situation. So as you see, the RP argument ... has some potential issues.

As for the gameplay - it is a question of what megastructures are supposed to represent. The pinnacle of interstellar engineering, and thus on par with the ascension paths? Or the logical conclusion to any technological development? Or, perhaps, "wonder" type buildings? Currently, they are a mix of the first and last options - this wasn't always the case, initially you could build a potentially unlimited amount of any megastructure, but the omnipresence of the Dyson Spheres made for poor gameplay, and thus we are where we are today. If you make the megastructures into the conclusion of certain technological developments, what's to stop a player from pursuing a path that gets them Dyson Spheres and Research Nexuses, then making 1-system vassals that are now also capable of building such; then feeding said vassals with the resources to do it, and re-integrating them again ... for virtually unlimited Dyson Spheres and Research Nexuses?

 

[Kain2K]

@Olterin
You make the misconception that every megastructure is a technological marvel that you could only build with godlike engineering techniques. Something like the Science Nexus, the Strategic Coordination Center, and most of the others shouldn't be locked behind Ascension Perks at all. I even question that those things are Megastructures per definition. Firstly, those buildings are propably bigger than your everyday spacestation, but definitely not as large as a whole planet, maybe as big as a city with a few hundred million citizens, at most. Yeah, thats still pretty darn big, but, imho not Megastructure big. Secondly, those structures aren't things that you need to focus your technological advancement for. You don't need technology to get close enough to a star to wholly encase it with material that is not immediatelly melting, you don't need to get close enough to a black hole without getting caught by its event horizon, let alone having the technology to farm matter from it. And neither do you have to develope technology to dismantle whole starsystems to transform all their matter to build a giant Ringworld. Researching a tech to unlock them should be enough, also because there is no harm in having every empire building those. Most empires should have an interesst, to have a dedicated place for research, without the danger of killing of most of your citizens because of an accident.
Every Non-Pacifist empire should, at some point, have a valid interest to have a Strategic Command Center that manages its fleet movement and everything else that has to do with its military might. Same goes for most of the other Megastructures.
So, I would much rather lock some of those "Megastructures" for certain ethics. Like: Fanatic Militarists shouldn't be able to build the Interstellar Assembly; or the Mega Art Installation could be locked for Materialists. IMHO, this would be better, than having a single Perk unlocking nearly every Megastructure, thus making it compulsory to choose it, because nearly every playstile and empire type profits of it in someway or the other. Also, there aren't nearly enough slots, to distribute those Structures to different perks, and some of them, like the Science Nexus, would be of much greater use if they would be unlocked earlier in the game.

 

[Vitruvian Guar]

.
I am aware of the thread yes, and a lot of useful things have been said there but I must say that I disagree about splitting them in different ascension perks.
From a RP point of view because it's engineering. Nuts and bolts. Not the ardent desire and the capacity of your people to trascend the material plane.
And from a mechanic point of view, because the tradition trees/available slots are so few that I can't afford to spend two just to have a dyson sphere and a matter decompressor, and a third one to build them faster.

I don't think we should concieve Ascension Perks as the "Knowledge how to do X". It's obviously what the technologies are. The ascension perks are... obsessions. Every civilization that researched droids can use cyber-augmentations. But only some actually embrace cybernetics to the degree to make it mandatory. It takes a special mindset to voluntary remove the parts of your body and replace them with metal and plastic. In theory other empires, who didn't take FIW perk can do it as well... they just don't think it's a good idea. Analogically, researching megaeng gives the capacity to build this giant art monument. But only some of the civilizations are crazy enough to actually spend their valuable resources on such a crazy project.

 

[Pat Casey]

I'd support this change, but I'd argue there's a more obvious improvement to be made to megastructures.

They should be available earlier, build faster, and cost less.

The problem right now is that by the time you can build them, you don't need them.

My most recent semi-tall game is an example... by the time i researched mega engineering, rebuild a section on the cybex ringworld, colonoized it, resettled a bunch of colonists over to it, build it up enough so it was useful I was swimming in energy, and was researching late game repeatable techs. Sure the ringworld helped me do a bit more researching, but it was a matter of degrees rather than a huge bump.

 

[evilcat]

There is 8 ascession slot. Sacrifizng one for megastructures is ok if that is your thing.

There is a problem with randomness of megaengineering. And the time they come.
There could be a feature of curators/caravaneers selling 5% of megaengineering.

 

[Roddo]

No. That would make them EVEN LESS special and MEGA.