Megastructures in 2.2 and beyond

[ayrton]

Hey everyone, it's been a while since I made a post.

I am currently experiencing some troubles with megastructures- balance wise.
I love to play as machines, and I also like to play as lifeseeded races. I also like to play tall and bide my time, which used to work pretty well with machines and voidborne > megastructures path.
My playgroup is pretty powergamey, all into min-maxing their races and stuff but we don't shy from roleplaying or playing a specific thing for fun.

Ever since 2.2 my to go to playstyle has been effectively destroyed.
My 30 - 50 star life seeded empire cannot muster the alloys needed to build the megastructures I depend on to stay viable in the lategame. In fact, I struggle to build fleets and keep myself from getting enslaved or conqueered 100 - 150 years into the game. When I finally have my dyson sphere online, my friend has a 3500 - 4000 energy income (to which he can add his % bonusses! something you can't do with dyson sphere) from a single ecumenopolis. (not that he builds just one, oh no) Both as life seeded and as machines I am excluded from building the ecumenopolis, and locked out from the de-facto best energy production in the game. As machines my habitats have been nerfed into non-existence, while my friends get plenty of trade value from their habitats (again leading into hundreds and hundred of energy income)- something I can't do as machines.

The matter extractor sounded like a dream come true. A thousand minerals?!? Better turn one of my planets into a forge world!
The matter extractor is unbuildable in my tall playstyles- The alloys are needed elsewhere, and are produced too slow. while my friends have no need building them with slave planets or such. Meanwhile my wide-going friends sometimes build one for fun or for a nice bonus.

Am I doing something wrong? Or are megastructures just not viable anymore? I am seeing in the update log megastructure build times being increased- giving me the impression that for some people they are still strong enough to need nerfing.

 

[anamiac]

You're building a tall empire? How's that working out for you? I wasn't under the impression that tall empires were effective in the current meta, what with the massive boons to research and unity outweighing the penalties as you go over administrative cap.

 

[fuinril]

They are viable, but hey, dude, you're playing tall ! What did you expect ?

Tall may be a bit stronger now, but is still weak compare to wide. At the very least you cannot hope to rival the resource incomes of a wide player, so playing like one you ask for your own destruction. You have to capitalize on the huge bonuses you get to science and unity and so begin to build those megastructures before your friends. Same for battle : you need to use your technology advance to trivialize your battles with stronger ships cleaverly designed to counter your opponent's.

It's harder, no doubt, and even if you do everything perfectly you'll still loose again an opponent going wide. But it's viable.

 

[ayrton]

You're building a tall empire? How's that working out for you? I wasn't under the impression that tall empires were effective in the current meta, what with the massive boons to research and unity outweighing the penalties as you go over administrative cap.

In singleplayer it goes fine- with a bit of exploiting and gimmicking

But in multiplayer my playstyle, has been, as said, completely evaporated
I can't afford the buildings that are there 'for tall play'- costs have effectively tripled or quadroupled since alloys became a thing. and I am locked out of the new 'tall play' holy grail- the ecumenopolis.

I love alloys! I love the new economy system! But I don't want to play as megacorp or slaver empire

 

[fuinril]

what with the massive boons to research and unity outweighing the penalties as you go over administrative cap.

True and false. That's true late game, but early to mid game is another story and that's the moment, as a tall empire, you have to shine. You have to be prepared and build your empire accordingly though

 

[ayrton]

They are viable, but hey, dude, you're playing tall ! What did you expect ?

Tall may be a bit stronger now, but is still weak compare to wide. At the very least you cannot hope to rival the resource incomes of a wide player, so playing like one you ask for your own destruction. You have to capitalize on the huge bonuses you get to science and unity and so begin to build those megastructures before your friends. Same for battle : you need to use your technology advance to trivialize your battles with stronger ships cleaverly designed to counter your opponent's.

It's harder, no doubt, and even if you do everything perfectly you'll still loose again an opponent going wide. But it's viable.

How do you manage to get those megastructures? I think I'm doing something wrong with regards to the new economy. I can't get enough alloys fast enough to afford well, anything but just about enough ships to defend myself.

 

[Optimizt]

Even if you're life seeded, colonize everything. Sure, your upkeep doubles per pop, but that's not a huge issue; when you weigh the cost of the pops vs. the resources provided, it's a no-brainer. Tall is more "thick" than "few planets." Instead of sprawling out, you focus on developing everything within your borders quickly. Straddle your admin cap instead of blowing past it to take advantage of the low tech/unity costs. You will need a few dedicated mining planets to get the mineral and then alloy income you need for megastructures. You will 100% want to build an ecumenopolis ASAP to start making alloys and consumer goods to allow you to focus your other planets on research.

 

[ayrton]

Even if you're life seeded, colonize everything. Sure, your upkeep doubles per pop, but that's not a huge issue; when you weigh the cost of the pops vs. the resources provided, it's a no-brainer. Tall is more "thick" than "few planets." Instead of sprawling out, you focus on developing everything within your borders quickly. Straddle your admin cap instead of blowing past it to take advantage of the low tech/unity costs. You will need a few dedicated mining planets to get the mineral and then alloy income you need for megastructures. You will 100% want to build an ecumenopolis ASAP to start making alloys and consumer goods to allow you to focus your other planets on research.

Both as life-seeded and as robots you are locked out of ecumenopoli.

 

[ayrton]

The only time I've managed to get a matter extractor online was when I found a broken one and had another (tall) player help fund it so we could share the benefits

 

[Optimizt]

Both as life-seeded and as robots you are locked out of ecumenopoli.

Are you sure you didn't have Agrarian Idyll as well? Gestalts can't build them of course, but machine worlds and hive worlds are almost good enough replacements. Agrarian Idyll is the only non-gestalt civic that locks it out; my guess is for flavor reasons but probably to also nerf the civic as it's already incredibly good.

 

[fuinril]

How do you manage to get those megastructures? I think I'm doing something wrong with regards to the new economy. I can't get enough alloys fast enough to afford well, anything but just about enough ships to defend myself.

Well, in the new system economy is a huge thing and you could - or not - do a lot of terrible mistakes. It's impossible to tell you without your savegame.

But, reading you, there's one question that come to my mind : why are you trying to build a strong fleet ? As a tall empire it's OK to be pretty weak fleet wise. You can not hope to rival the incomes of a wide empire, so you're going to loose everytime in an attrition game. But, as you do not need to expand, you should have a way easier time fortifying your borders. Fortress have very efficient alloy/power ratio until late game

 

[ayrton]

Are you sure you didn't have Agrarian Idyll as well? Gestalts can't build them of course, but machine worlds and hive worlds are almost good enough replacements. Agrarian Idyll is the only non-gestalt civic that locks it out; my guess is for flavor reasons but probably to also nerf the civic as it's already incredibly good.

Ah, that might be my mistake. Yes, in the last game I had both.

 

[Masoz]

It's harder, no doubt, and even if you do everything perfectly you'll still loose again an opponent going wide. But it's viable.

Wut.

You and I have very different definitions for "viable."

 

[fuinril]

Wut.

You and I have very different definitions for "viable."

Could be. But you'll learn one day that optimal is not viable. Want to min max ? So do NOT play tall in Stellaris. You can win a game as a tall empire so that is viable, you can even win it playing with federation AI. But it certainly is wayyyyy easier to do playing wide, alone, as an exterminator.

 

[Masoz]

It can be both.

Based on OP, I was assuming we were talking about tall viability for winning an MP game. It was a little confusing for me the way they worded it.

For MP, I don't see how a strategy where you always lose even if you do it perfectly is considered viable.

SP is a completely different story. Countless strategies can be considered viable when it's not a competitive multiplayer setting.

 

[fuinril]

It can be both.

Based on OP, I was assuming we were talking about tall viability for winning an MP game. It was a little confusing for me the way they worded it.

For MP, I don't see how a strategy where you always lose even if you do it perfectly is considered viable.

SP is a completely different story. Countless strategies can be considered viable when it's not a competitive multiplayer setting.

Another way of wording it is, if you ever only finished only one single SP playthrough I'm pretty sure I could wreck you hard in whatever setting you choose for me. So it is viable.

Sure, if I can choose my own setting I will own the galaxy (you included) before 200 years... but hey, I have more than 500 hours in the game. It's obvious.... Does that mean it's viable ? It's a proof that it is. But it certainly is not optimal.

All in all I really dislike theses posts which lead to uniformization of FTL jumps. Stellaris was never meant to be balanced but to allow you to play as you like it. If in CK2 you play as a small irish count, do you expect to play on the same ground that a Karling or a spawn of the Byzantine empire ? In EUIV do you expect to have the same power playing as Venice compared to playing France ?

Want to roxx hard ? Fine by me. But just do tell that, so I can explain that you should play wide and play with a government which ignore most war rules....

 

[mcolder]

I don't find Life Seeded particularly Megastructure challenged. But I never build a Dyson anymore... What I seem to be constantly building is Command Centers because I can't see any other way to increase your Naval and Starbase capacity to a satisfactory level. Could be why the AI seems to spam Anchorages to the detriment of protecting its trade routes. I am kind of unimpressed by Ring Worlds though, it just seems like now they belong to the realm of unstability of 2400 on. By the time they are fully populated the game is over... I tried Matter Decompresors, they seem ok but really it's Command Centers every game...

 

[fuinril]

Command centers are far from OP. They are OK though, but you can play witn or without. Ultimately, one of the only things the last update did not wreck was the play choices. There's no "this megastructure is better", it all depends about player choice, situation, ethic and RP.

We all know that the best trio is decompressor with command center and sentry array. So what ? If you really want to play a balanced space 4X I can give you at least, without thinking, 3 better choices than Stellaris. That does not make Stellaris better or worse, just different.... And one of the difference is the ability to not think as much about optimizing.

 

[mcolder]

I don’t think they’re OP I just think you kinda need them if you want to sustain a big fleet and have enough starbases. Unless you’re playing tall then you’re fine. Last Life Seeded I played I didn’t need one

 

[Alspego]

When I finally have my dyson sphere online, my friend has a 3500 - 4000 energy income (to which he can add his % bonusses! something you can't do with dyson sphere) from a single ecumenopolis.

How do you get a income of 3500-4000 energy from a ecumenopolis?