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unmerged(9895)

Imfamous Warmonger
Jun 21, 2002
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i know i said i was done with this thread, but i guess i lied

i was in the shower today and i came up with an idea

i think that the diplomatic sliders are the root of our evil, well atleast they cause a lot of issues.

they were placed in to make the game more detailed and give you a more real feeling about your country, while what they have become is a tool that players manipulate to get what they need to take advantage of the game engine.

therefore, i have come up with two possible fixes, one drastic and one a little more mild.

1.eliminate the ability of human players to move diplomatic sliders.
this would enable the sliders to be only moved by histroical and random events. this would make these events what they should be, major events in the course of history that change the way things were going(in example: that event that is -4 stability +1 centralization may actually become worth it). I dont know if this is a possible fix, or if you would just have to go on players word they are not moving it except by events.

2.change the movement of sliders from once every ten years to once every twenty years (or twenty-five). This would allow 5 or 4 changes in a century, which becomes more realistic for the times. This would still make events a big thing, but not as dependent as in the first option.

These choices should help solve a lot of problems without having to restrict every little thing (I.E.: number of CC's or number of forts)

and in a replay to a replay to my last post
nobody ever came out and said things should be made equal for every nation, but thats what rules do. Is not limiting every nation to ten CC's equal for everyone? is 10 to you not the same as 10 to me? should england have ten CC's and Russia have ten CC's ?? and it works in reverse to...should england be limited to ten max forts while russia is limited to ten max forts?? surely england is known for its defenses while russia is known for its limitless hordes of troops. so basically puting a limit on any one thing is equalizing the competition.

if you need any more examples try this one......dont know how much you pay attention to american sports, but a salary cap is a limit on total salaries one team can have for every man on their roster. the idea behind it is to stop the teams with more money from buying out all the good players and having a hughe team salary, which surely the poorer teams can not afford. This, inefect, equalizes competition for the entire league and creates parady. surely there was no parady in the nations of 16th and 17th century europe.
 

BiB

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Originally posted by Duuk
So. How's about you nice beta folks solve the underlying issue instead of suggesting work arounds? :rolleyes:

Oh, suddenly there are issues and they should be fixed yesterday ? :rolleyes:

Sorry, but we have to burn some workarounds at the stake first, they're EVIL and deserve to die!
 

BiB

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Originally posted by Damocles
Might as well list all the stats of Spain and Netherlands as well. They are hardly in historical proportion. Until the last year of the game, I had less manpower then Russia or the Ottomans. Once Russia and the Ottomans reach land tech 41, they'll have much more then me. At the height of the French-Austrian wars, I had 224 manpower and Austria had 159.

If France going almost full quantity and becoming the nation with the third most manpower is a game design flaw, then I'd like to know who else should have more then France. Hell, as Austria, I've absorbed the entire HRE before and had almost twice as much manpower as France. I just didn't let Maur do that in this MGC. (I've done it to him a couple times in the past...)

Ussually, France needs her manpower to fend off Austria, Spain and England. The fact that very unforseen diplomatic actions pushed France and Spain into a mutual alliance and that England never became anything made it much easier for France to dominate. Still. If Austria, the Russians and the Ottomans actually banded together in a strong alliance, they would have been much more militarily powerful due to outnumbering us 3 to 1. Just because those three ended up waging war against each other instead of the West...

I've said it a few times already, and I'll say it again. From the viewpoint of someone who has played more EUII multiplayer then just about anyone else for a very long time...The problems that arose in this game were 99 percent diplomatic. It is unfortunate, that this has set off a inquisition directed towards the game mechanics. The one actual advantage that France has over Austria (IF France can make Austria lose the Netherlands and not annex the HRE) Spain, England and Netherlands is manpower. Maybe the problem is CCs? Well. We've only had CCs for a year. The inclusion of CCs or not would not have changed the last 200 years.

Yet, everything I've seen is directed towards fixing some economic issue, or the maintain slider. Proportionally, everything will remain the same. Yes, I had 33 manufacturies, yet Spain had almost a 100, if not more. Netherlands and Austria had a manufactury in all of their provinces as well. Hell. The Ottomans probably did too. Spain also had a 1000 a month income...The Netherlands still had more then me.

Also, I take offense that just because I set my diplo slider to quantity, I must somehow be exploiting the game engine.

In any case, its tough luck. If the English, Austrian and Spanish players can't contain France, then its common sense that France will dominate. All of these house rules are just to make up for diplomatic mistakes and I really doubt you'll have another French player as aggressive as I am that won't get his ass handed to him.

I suppose, after playing just about every major country numerous times in countless multiplayer games, and having seen almost every possible scenario, I am just a little jaded to all this talk about it being impossible for France to lose, since I've seen it happen in every game where I or JohnMK wasn't France...

As I tell to others, u also focus on this game too much. At times u can detach urself from it and give historical based critique, which people are trying to get sorted, and at other times u argument things from this game's perspective and the save, not the game itself. To put it bluntly : I don't care about this specific save at all. Why should I give a rat's arse, my PC is broke so I can't play anyway :D I want to make this game work better.
 

Damocles

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Well...Then an actual problem needs to be identified. What is the actual pinpointed problem that needs to be worked around that has nothing do with the save? I haven't read anything from either you or Mowers saying just what exactly needs to be fixed. Otherwise its just pissing in the wind.
 

BiB

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Originally posted by Damocles
Well...Then an actual problem needs to be identified. What is the actual pinpointed problem that needs to be worked around that has nothing do with the save? I haven't read anything from either you or Mowers saying just what exactly needs to be fixed. Otherwise its just pissing in the wind.

Too much money in the endgame, manufactories being too good, inflation not working at all, tech research not going as it should ... That's just the beginning of a whole washlist which I sent to Johan. These are issues in just about every game, sp or mp. For someone with so much experience it is astonishing u haven't noticed any of these yet :D
 

unmerged(3489)

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Take this with a large grain of salt as I've never played MP, but it seems to me like the problem is that all the major powers are being run by humans. Historically and when the AI is in charge, the majority of the effort is spent on meaningless or marginally useful wars, inefficient colonization and other such unproductive things. Instead, we have Spain, France, England, Austria and company being guided over time towards the maximum amount of money, tech, territory and other good things by players who are very good at it.

OF COURSE things are going to get out of hand!

They do in single player. If you're any of the major powers, you're going to get out of hand automatically. This is true even if your country stays within its historical limits, which is the best an MP game can hope to limit a player. Even if you're a relatively bad player like me. Two hundred years of steady economic development backed with knowledge of events to come will lead to a France or Spain that looks like that, even if it had to fight for its life numerous times. If it didn't do that, something would be wrong.

In short, this situation is a problem, but this situation not happening would indicate a bigger problem. I think the game, and even MGC3, did a remarkable job of holding together under these conditions.

If that's the problem, what is the solution? Some sort of massive economic penalty or restriction on all human-run countries is probably the only way to offset this problem, if in fact it is a problem. It depends on your goals I guess. Taking away the ability to change the DP sliders or greatly limiting manufacturies or creating additional inflation all seem like steps in the right direction.

If there's a second problem involving balance between nations other than the lack of a decline of Spain, which is already being looked at, then I haven't seen any proof of one. The problems in this game do indeed sound 95%+ diplomatic. Congrats on a great game guys, even if it is over.
 

Smirfy

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Originally posted by Duuk
Ok, now that we have some numbers we can see what the issue is.

It's not so much CCs or forts or anything of the sort.

Manpower and maintenance costs are way out of whack, and being a massive, rich country can make you a tech wonder no matter how close minded you are.

So. How's about you nice beta folks solve the underlying issue instead of suggesting work arounds? :rolleyes:

In case you missed your duuks post
 

Duuk

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Originally posted by BiB


It already got the answer it deserved :D

Actually, it got a smart ass non-productive answer.

TomAto, tOmato.

Duuk
 

swilhelm73

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I'll throw in my own two cents here, but ultimately, its your game, play it as you guys want...

France has won this game, and he won it by diplomacy, when he brought Spain into his alliance. Since they were the top two powers of the time, obviously allied they are unstoppable. Imagine a Soviet-US alliance in 1960.

France certainly is defeatable, but outside of Maur, no one really wanted to.

There were two primary interests for a monarch of this time - get as much as you can for your own country, and try and stop any one country from becoming overwhelming strong.

For the most part, MGC3 players' pursuit of the former has been haphazard, and the latter was abandoned over Austrian duplicity. You guys have been running your countries as 20th century enlightned despots, not the warmongering SOBs of the time period.

A France as strong as Dam's would have run roughshod over Europe generating a coalition to stop it - ala Napoleon.

As for their being too much money, well, compare how much you guys spent on war and rebuilding with how much the real empires of the time pissed away on war and then had to rebuild. Trade and infrastructure do need a tech curve like land and naval, but that is comparatively a minor issue. If you were rebuilding your armies, forts, and navies every twenty years due to their decimation in war, the cash wouldn't be as plentiful.

I do like the change in tech group idea in multiplayer, since it should make up in large measure for human advantages in strategy. If AI China was only one CRT behind Spain say, I rather doubt its conquest would have been so easy...

Obviously, if you do finish the game, there should be no changes. You play the game by the rules agreed to before the game started. We Americans had a first hand lesson in that recently... :)
 

Petrarca

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Originally posted by swilhelm73
I'll throw in my own two cents here, but ultimately, its your game, play it as you guys want...

France has won this game, and he won it by diplomacy, when he brought Spain into his alliance. Since they were the top two powers of the time, obviously allied they are unstoppable. Imagine a Soviet-US alliance in 1960.

France certainly is defeatable, but outside of Maur, no one really wanted to.

There were two primary interests for a monarch of this time - get as much as you can for your own country, and try and stop any one country from becoming overwhelming strong.

For the most part, MGC3 players' pursuit of the former has been haphazard, and the latter was abandoned over Austrian duplicity. You guys have been running your countries as 20th century enlightned despots, not the warmongering SOBs of the time period.

A France as strong as Dam's would have run roughshod over Europe generating a coalition to stop it - ala Napoleon.

As for their being too much money, well, compare how much you guys spent on war and rebuilding with how much the real empires of the time pissed away on war and then had to rebuild. Trade and infrastructure do need a tech curve like land and naval, but that is comparatively a minor issue. If you were rebuilding your armies, forts, and navies every twenty years due to their decimation in war, the cash wouldn't be as plentiful.

I do like the change in tech group idea in multiplayer, since it should make up in large measure for human advantages in strategy. If AI China was only one CRT behind Spain say, I rather doubt its conquest would have been so easy...

Obviously, if you do finish the game, there should be no changes. You play the game by the rules agreed to before the game started. We Americans had a first hand lesson in that recently... :)
I agree- the next MGC should replace the current players with trained, belligerent chimpanzees. This IMO is the major problem- you people are not the bloodthirsty idiots who actually thought that gaining a province or two was enough to start worldwide war. All goals have been clearly defined (by comparison to "make my country a superpower" that was the monarchs' goal) and if achievable, achievable through a quick stroke, like Austria's Pearl Harbor or the emasculation of Johan's Austria (Spain's Shanghai debacle notwithstanding). Ulver's attempts to get Shanghai should be more typical of player actions- rash and prone to mistake (sorry, your gameplay was excellent otherwise:D ), rather than the actual thinking you people put into playing. The ability of humans to think ahead or think strategically is the thing making the game unbalanced, and no solution readily presents itself. I suppose switching players or countries would be necessary, as a breach of trust during one era doesn't necessarily mean icy relations for the rest of the game if a new player takes over, say, every fifty years (The Habsburg Schism). Just a thought, summed up as "you people should be more juvenile and violent."
 

unmerged(2833)

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Originally posted by BiB


Look what the cat dragged in :D

We had to do sommink while waiting for u :D
:D

The thing that amazes me how you all managed to post five the number of posts during tenth of the timeline (it's 1728, right?):eek:

Will take me some time to read it all.
 

Damocles

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The sad thing Maur, is that, we've gone only 17 years since you last played with us. Unfortunately, everybody wanted to stop playing since "It wasn't worthwhile to continue if the ending was set in stone already". The last 200 posts have been about houserules...

Welcome back. Me and John didn't know if you had either catastrophic computer trouble or suffered a tragic accident...Hope it wasn't the latter.

Still. Good to see you back. Going back to college in a few days tho. While that is normally a good thing, it does mean, no more MGC...

P.S We were already starting to refer to you in the past tense. :D
 
M

Mowers

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hmm

God there was rubbish posted when i was on holiday! There is so much information on this board that there is hardly an excuse for some of the ignorant posts that have really detracted from the conversation.

Basically we had a good game and then the engine clearly broke and I was trying to get a discussion going as to how the breaks could be compensated for future games. I and BiB have repeatedly highlighted the problems and discussing answers. Its all there to read. If you dont think the game has any flaws or needs any correction then I'm really not going to argue with you! But if you do think that the game can be dramatically improved then we would both be very interested to hear your suggestions either for a patch or, currently more importantly and requiring more brain power, solutions for current problems.
 
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unmerged(2833)

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Well, Damo, i hadn't. I'm almost done reading all this, and will probably post something long after it.

Yeah, i won't have that much time now, too. Ah, btw, i realized the 'past tense', after BiB said something about cats dragging things inside:D