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M

Mowers

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Originally posted by Damocles
The Naval Question:

Many years ago, France turned her eye from going after any kind of real naval policy. "Nay!" It was declared, so long as we have a land route to our enemies, we have no need for a navy! It would be a useless expense. A junior officer piped up that France didn't have a land route to England...The barbarian frontier of the French empire so to speak, with garrison duty in Kent as being the worst punishment imaginable. This junior officer was obviously laughed out of the conference room. France had plenty of boats to transport ships and believe it or not, had the ability to navally overcome any power save Spain and Netherlands, despite having hardly invested in it.

France knew as long as it was possible to get a 99 percent victory by occupying Spain proper, a massive navy was not needed. Furthermore, in a REAL battle...It would be much more conveniant to let all of his maximally fortified colonial islands rebel wherein it would be a needless waste of effort to try and occupy them.

All I can say is that every MGC game has demonstrated that in 'real battles' the utility of navies in the 2nd half of the game can be a decisive factor. Although I am somewhat biased towards good old naval action.
 
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ulver

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Looking at the ledger trying to determine future strategy I found a lot of things to be quite surprising. I thought I’d share my findings with you

Firstly we have the victory point graph that, frankly, holds no surprises as I have yet to se a MP game where Spain is not ahead from start to finish. I’d like to brag that this is the result of good Spanish play but it would have taken truly incompetent Spanish play to screw up her VP standing.

vp.jpg


The wealth Graph, while not terrible informative, also indicates that Spain is by far the wealthiest nation in the world followed by the Netherlands and France as a third. I think if this leads to any boosting the Dutch have most to be proud of here.

wealth.jpg


The development of economic techs also indicates the Spanish-Dutch domination though much of the game with the United Provinces concentrating on trade and Spain on infrascture.

trade.jpg


infra.jpg


Land technology is perhaps most notable for how far behind Spain was in much of the period while everyone in the Latin tech group seems to be running neck and neck now. The ability of the Ottomans to keep in the running is quite impressive really.

http://www.ulver.dk/files/leger/\land.jpg[/IMG]

Navy technology reveals the massive lead the Dutch held for centuries while Spain seems slightly ahead now. Most interesting, perhaps, is how non-Latin tech group countries have been left far behind.

navel.jpg


Finally it becomes clear that the sun truly never sets on the Spanish empire spanning the globe. I was frankly surprised to see that Russia have only recently overtaken the Dutch as number two in size.

size.jpg


At first glance the size of the worlds navies would seem to indicate the Ottomans are in the running but it should be pointed out that those galleys belong in history books – not on the high seas. There are really only two navy powers in existence. Spain and the Netherlands

[IMG]http://www.ulver.dk/files/leger/navyforces.jpg

The listing for army powers frankly shocked me. To my utter astonishment I found Spain to have been consistently among the great land powers and – completely unexpected - turns out to have the greatest army in existence at this time. I should be pointed out that much of it is spread out across the empire and thus not available for the point of decision in any conflict but still. I actually field more firepower then France.

landforces.jpg


The breakdown of the world’s greatest navy and army is as follows

maintain.jpg


The bulk of my expenses come from maintaining my cannons while the bloated fleet seems surprisingly affordable. Finally Spanish losses for anyone interested. Interesting that I have disbanded over a thousand cannons in this game.

losses.jpg
 

unmerged(10425)

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It's interesting to see how perceptions have changed during the game and this thread. After the first war Damocles was a war genius but a "bull in a glass house" dipolomatically while ulver was a diplomatic genius. Now things are a bit different. The only thing that seems certain so far is that Damocles is very good at War.
 

ulver

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Damocles,


Given that we have recently come to a détente I’d request some staff exciseses to cement contacts.

It might be interesting to run some hypnotically wars between us. Simply to study the operational merit of our different strategy. If you are interested I’d like to try the following.

A one on one Spanish-French war with no war exhaustion. This would essentially mean editing war exhaustion away when ever it became relevant. It would permit us to test various Iberian invasions at different tech levels.. I actually believe Spain would eventually triumph due to the economic power of her navel blockade. Might make an interesting study

A one on one war following normal rules. Spain’s eventual destruction is certain obviously but it might be interesting to see how long her destruction would take and we could both test our ability to deal with hyper was exhaustion. Something that may well be relevant even if we do decide to renew our alliance.

Neither of these scenarios really reflect the likely course of any real was as we both have fairly extensive allies to call on in reality and in any case a real was in the future seems unlikely following our talks.
 

BiB

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I tried fixing the one link in ur post that didn't work, ulver but the board won't allow more images.

Dunno how some of those graphs work though, I never had a higher trade tech than Spain for example (still haven't maxed it actually as there's no extra benefit). It also shows the Dutch with best naval tech for ages while we actually broke free from Austria and had by far NOT the best naval tech in the world quite understandably. Apart from land tech, which was excellent, we had qutie a catch up race to do but for some reason that doesn't reflect.

VP wise, nice battle for 3rd place :D The Versailles event put France firmly in 2nd place.

Dunno how the wealth one gets calculated, can't say I ever had a bigger income base than Spain thoguh it clearly shows that we 2 are teh richest. Dunno why it ends with a slide down as it's actually still rising. Also notice how Sweden, who keeps begging for money left, right and center is actually the 4th richest nation in the world.

territory size wise we're quite set. Qutie stagnant lately but bear in mind that those provs went from TPs to fullfledged cities in that time. Lately have been setting free some Indian vassals to preserve the Hindu faith for eternity. Russia atm is also still in that tp fase.

The naval forces graph comes from an era from rapid expansion, an explosion in fleet sizes and it has trouble keeping up and it shows. We actually have as many warships as the Spanish and if they build one, we build one. Land forces wise we try to get by on French support :D It's our perenial weak point and the reason the Netherlands can't win this game.
 

ulver

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BiB we should both be hitting the 1000 warship mark shortly. While it keeps unemployment down perhaps some sort of navy arms control agreement may be in order. How we both agree not to go over 1000 Warships without informing the other? 1000 warships each should be enough to make us pretty secure against 3rd parties.
 

BiB

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Originally posted by ulver
BiB we should both be hitting the 1000 warship mark shortly. While it keeps unemployment down perhaps some sort of navy arms control agreement may be in order. How we both agree not to go over 1000 Warships without informing the other? 1000 warships each should be enough to make us pretty secure against 3rd parties.

1000 sounds good as long as the rest doesn't expand rapidly.
 

Johan

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Originally posted by BiB


1000 sounds good as long as the rest doesn't expand rapidly.

Fear the Austrian fleet :)

Anyway, when's the next playing time?
 

ulver

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No I never bought many mercenaries actually. I suspect the game assigns a high combat power to cannons and since I build a lot of those it translate into a high graph. Also I have always had significant forces overseas. Just out for curiosity what is the current strength of the French army?

Any chance for a quick operational test tonight?
 

Johan

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Re: Johan and Others

Originally posted by Mowers
I'm free tomorrow night but not tonight for more than a couple of hours.

Ben

Tomorrow night is better for me..
 

PJL

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Originally posted by BiB


1000 sounds good as long as the rest doesn't expand rapidly.

Well I'm sure that even if i had 2000 ships you would still defeat me easily lol.

Nice images of the graphs there Ulver, though I too agree that the wealth one is dodgy - can't believe that Sweden is wealthier than me lol.

Tomorrow night is fine by me too.
 

Derek Pullem

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Just as an observation - Spain has a military agreement with France re land forces and soon with Holland for Naval forces. Spain is the undisputed colonial master.

The chance of any of the minor powers even scratching the top two (three perhaps with BiB?) is negligible.

Why do you all want to play on?
 

BiB

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Originally posted by Derek Pullem
Just as an observation - Spain has a military agreement with France re land forces and soon with Holland for Naval forces. Spain is the undisputed colonial master.

The chance of any of the minor powers even scratching the top two (three perhaps with BiB?) is negligible.

Why do you all want to play on?

My point exactly several pages ago :D