MEFO bills OP

[stl3l9n]

I've started a thread like this before, but it got closed by the mods because someone in the thread...
Anyway, you get a -20 consumer goods factory which is far too OP, and the recent teaser shows the USSR annexed by Germany, which already shows that it might be OP... Thoughts?
EDIT:

I've been watching the recent WWW streams and I was kinda surprised when I saw that MEFO bills give you -20 consumer goods - it means that you don't need to build any civ facs and can easily get 150 mil factories by WW2. Germany in 1939 was outmatched by French and British forces, but with this amount of mil factories, you can just seemingly steamroll through France and Britain (in MP). I hope paradox reduces it to something reasonable like 10. I wonder what your opinions of this are?

This was my OP in the old thread.

Ok that teaser probually didn't mean much, but -20 still seems like allot. You can get 150 mil facs by WW2...

 

[Broletariat90]

Well considering the German and the Soviets are human players, I'm waiting to see what actually happened and not make any judgments.

 

[stl3l9n]

Oh I didn't know that but...
Anyway, here is the old thread
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/mefo-bills-op.1069832/#post-23820786

 

[Secret Master]

The DD mentioned an ever increasing cost to MEFO bills as time goes on, and and ever increasing cost to stopping MEFO bills before the war is underway. (My assumption is that MEFO bills disappear once Germany is at war, so you don't have negative consumer goods by swapping to total mobilization or something stupid.)

Did any of the streams show what the costs were? I'm asking, because I have no doubt that they can be open to abuse, but how you regulate them might depend on the cost.

For example, can fascist nations like Germany still go to war economy at 15% WT? And do MEFO bills just cost PP? Or are we talking about some other kinds of costs?

 

[CrazyZombie]

The DD mentioned an ever increasing cost to MEFO bills as time goes on, and and ever increasing cost to stopping MEFO bills before the war is underway. (My assumption is that MEFO bills disappear once Germany is at war, so you don't have negative consumer goods by swapping to total mobilization or something stupid.)

MEFO cost shouldn't disappear as war starts. IRL nazis had to pay that internal debt until mid-1944.

 

[Secret Master]

MEFO cost shouldn't disappear as war starts. IRL nazis had to pay that internal debt until mid-1944.

I'm a bit hazy on my Tooze here, but I think that by the time Germany has beaten France, MEFO bills are basically rolled into the broader Germany debt structure, so they aren't different than regular bonds at that point.

She has to pay on the interest, but it's not like she would be paying more. And bonds are rolled into economic laws and consumer goods with other countries right now.

The shady aspects of MEFO (hidden rearmament, hidden budget, foreign capital and trade tricks) aren't really applicable once the shooting starts. It's not like Germany has to hide 12 billion RMs in rearmament spending anymore.

 

[Thrac]

Germany will start with less MiCs cuz of the MEFO Bill. 12 less if i remember correctly

 

[inteljoe]

I've started a thread like this before, but it got closed by the mods because someone in the thread...
Anyway, you get a -20 consumer goods factory which is far too OP, and the recent teaser shows the USSR annexed by Germany, which already shows that it might be OP... Thoughts?
EDIT:

This was my OP in the old thread.

Why don't we wait until the content is released unto the masses? I'm sure there will be users that like/dislike the patch/dlc on launch. March 8th, here we come.

 

[Thrac]

To be honest i think the Ally’s ar buffd in the upcoming DLC. Changeing economic laws at 25% War Support to Partial Mobilization, yes please.

 

[Shaka of Carthage]

Why don't we wait until the content is released unto the masses? I'm sure there will be users that like/dislike the patch/dlc on launch. March 8th, here we come.

Because those that complain would have to have factual complaints.

 

[Karbinder]

The DD mentioned an ever increasing cost to MEFO bills as time goes on, and and ever increasing cost to stopping MEFO bills before the war is underway. (My assumption is that MEFO bills disappear once Germany is at war, so you don't have negative consumer goods by swapping to total mobilization or something stupid.)

Did any of the streams show what the costs were? I'm asking, because I have no doubt that they can be open to abuse, but how you regulate them might depend on the cost.

For example, can fascist nations like Germany still go to war economy at 15% WT? And do MEFO bills just cost PP? Or are we talking about some other kinds of costs?

The MEFO Bills actually have a delayed payment during war. It doesn't go away until you fail to pay the required costs.

Exact Quote From HOI4 Dev Diary - A New Germany:
"MEFO Bills will reduce the consumer goods by 20% (resulting in virtually no consumer good requirements at all), but have to be extended every three months. The price of extending these will progressively increase, as will the penalty that must be paid if these are not extended. Paying off these bills can be delayed by going to war, in which case the payment will be deferred until after the war’s conclusion (so be sure you can afford it by that point!)."

Link: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hoi4-dev-diary-a-new-germany.1050529/

 

[stl3l9n]

I'm suprised considering people seemed to agree with me in the first thread but not at all here? The PP payment isn't that much, espicially considering Hitler has dictator.

 

[Meglok]

I've started a thread like this before, but it got closed by the mods because someone in the thread...
Anyway, you get a -20 consumer goods factory which is far too OP, and the recent teaser shows the USSR annexed by Germany, which already shows that it might be OP... Thoughts?
EDIT:

This was my OP in the old thread.

You might want to wait until you see the entirety of how the mechanic works rather than going off half-cocked based upon a work in progress video. Just saying....

If the mechanic works as described, then it will become an ever increasing hit and cost on something, probably PP since it is the only commodity, to extend the bills another 3 months. Extending them 14 or 15 times would probably be rather expensive so it will probably be a situation of when does the German player decide to take the hit to save PP loss. But I am just guessing and will reserve judgement until I see the release.

MEFO cost shouldn't disappear as war starts. IRL nazis had to pay that internal debt until mid-1944.

I'm a bit hazy on my Tooze here, but I think that by the time Germany has beaten France, MEFO bills are basically rolled into the broader Germany debt structure, so they aren't different than regular bonds at that point.

She has to pay on the interest, but it's not like she would be paying more. And bonds are rolled into economic laws and consumer goods with other countries right now.

The shady aspects of MEFO (hidden rearmament, hidden budget, foreign capital and trade tricks) aren't really applicable once the shooting starts. It's not like Germany has to hide 12 billion RMs in rearmament spending anymore.

Pretty sure the Germans began using things like Austrian and Czech gold to pay interest and debt before war broke out, And after the war broke hiding what they were doing to cook the books was no longer an issue.

 

[a_sophist]

I'm suprised considering people seemed to agree with me in the first thread but not at all here? The PP payment isn't that much, espicially considering Hitler has dictator.

It depends on what repayment entails and whether or not you can chain war declarations to never have to pay them.

 

[Secret Master]

"MEFO Bills will reduce the consumer goods by 20% (resulting in virtually no consumer good requirements at all), but have to be extended every three months. The price of extending these will progressively increase, as will the penalty that must be paid if these are not extended. Paying off these bills can be delayed by going to war, in which case the payment will be deferred until after the war’s conclusion (so be sure you can afford it by that point!)."

Right, I read that. But the language is vague to me. Do you have to keep paying the upkeep cost on MEFO while at war? If you stop, does that mean MEFO stops having an effect, but you don't have to pay the "money" back until the war is over? Or does it mean paying the upkeep on MEFO is also delayed for the duration of the war?

 

[IDGBIA]

Whether or not its op entirely depends on how the new systems like war support and stability interact with not only the mefo bills themselves but also the allies and soviets. If the germans also have way more stability and war support (They get some from anchluss as i recall) then it might be a problem and may make the axis so strong early game that even the soviet cant stop them in multiplayer. it certainly makes factory trading as Germany disgustingly good

 

[Karbinder]

Right, I read that. But the language is vague to me. Do you have to keep paying the upkeep cost on MEFO while at war? If you stop, does that mean MEFO stops having an effect, but you don't have to pay the "money" back until the war is over? Or does it mean paying the upkeep on MEFO is also delayed for the duration of the war?

When it says "Paying off these bills can be delayed by going to war, in which case the payment will be deferred until after the war’s conclusion (so be sure you can afford it by that point!)." I'm pretty sure that it means the payment timer (being the time in which you have to pay PP and continue using the MEFO Bills) will be paused until the end of the war, in which it will be unpaused and continue as normal. You would continue to receive the benefits and penalties throughout the war as well.

 

[Hans Lemurson]

So...if you are never at peace, you never have to pay your bills?

 

[Secret Master]

So...if you are never at peace, you never have to pay your bills?

Well, once the big one starts, does it really matter? Either Germany wins the war, and should be able to pay the MEFO bills, or loses the war, and it doesn't matter.

 

[Achab]

GER does DoW and attacks POL, Allies wont join, GER capitulates and annexes POL, the war is over, GER pays off Mefo, Allies "Muhahahah".