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tuareg109

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I... always shake my head at this obsession with light skin tone. It's disturbing.

Yes, because the Pope, and the Dukes of Lombardy and Carinthia, and the Doges of Venezia, should all be as dark as Gandhi.
If reality is disturbing to you, you need help. The reality is as Xwarq stated; nobles--except for men on campaign--stayed out of the sun and kept an unhealthy pale complexion. Courtiers could very well have the darker skin, that's fine and well, but I don't want to see the 70 year old Italian Queen Mother of Italy have the skin tone of Mohamed Moursi after spending the last 2/3rds of her life almost completely indoors. I'd like to see all men (yes, even Scandinavians) get a bit more tan when on campaign, and with the brave, gardener, duelist, hunter, and falconer traits, and any martial education trait.
With that, I'd like to petition for dynamic skin color, and dynamic beards.
 

CrackdToothGrin

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I have zero to no concerns for the whiteness of any particular culture in this game, but out of curiosity, I tried to think of a simple way to test or see how 'dark' Spaniards are since everyone seems to be ping-ponging on the issue.

I used Google streetview in a couple hundred random places throughout Spain, and they were not as dark as the facepack seems to suggest. Honestly, they don't really look any darker than most of the people where I live in Indianapolis. I did the same thing in Italy and Greece, and once again, I didn't see many people who were noticeably darker as a rule of thumb.

In either case, I'll still buy it, because I mod portraits. If anything, the hats look pretty good.
 

Nuril

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As for the skin, I... always shake my head at this obsession with light skin tone. It's disturbing.

and I am really perplexed by this fear of tanned skin.

Right, I'm not planting a standard about this issue or anything, but please do not automatically presume that people who object to an issue regarding race are automatically Race"-ists". If an issue like this cropped up regarding any ethnicity I would launch objections purely on the basis of accuracy. If they decided to expand the map and some other group ended up looking unrealistically pale then that would also be a concern, or if they pushed back the start-date and included a "Fun DLC" that included a bit of Vinland and the Skraelings were based on the Chinese, because hey, that's "Asiatic enough", right? That doesn't mean I think Chinese people are "worse", just that it wouldn't be accurate.

Heck, you could even mod in a Northern Italian culture that's still part of the Latin culturegroup but does NOT use Mediterranean faces (see: the French).

Yeah, naturally it'll be treated differently depending on the mod. Modding is never an excuse for misrepresenting things in Vanilla, though, no matter the issue.
 

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My problem (which has been expressed in another thread) is not the darkness of the skin, notwithstanding the fact that most of the Iberian nobility of the time was descended from the Suebians and Visigoths, and most of the Italian nobility - North and South - was also Germanic and/or Frankish in origin (I have no idea about the Byzantine Empire), but rather the features which look extremely maghrebic. This would be more easily sellable as an Andalusian/Moorish face pack. As I stated in the other thread, I find the default Northern European faces more convincing (at least for the Iberian case) than these new ones.
 

Hackworthy

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I think they look great. Most important detail for me is the black hair: black hair doesn't look like a formless blob anymore and the old age beards aren't pure white, but they are grey/dark in parts.

As for the skin, I... always shake my head at this obsession with light skin tone. It's disturbing. But moving beyond that, yeah -- they're tanned. But this is a face set that has to apply to all Mediterranean people, and moreover distinguish itself from Northern Europeans. Whether or not it better reflects Southern Italians, or Greeks, or Andalusians is an academic discussion because it has to apply to all of them. So perhaps some northern Italians won't look the way people expect them to: big deal, they didn't look that accurate before either.

It's an improvement and I am really perplexed by this fear of tanned skin. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you like it but only want the hats, then it's easy to use just the hats and put back the northern European look if you want to mod it. Heck, you could even mod in a Northern Italian culture that's still part of the Latin culturegroup but does NOT use Mediterranean faces (see: the French).

I am personally thrilled with the DLC, think it's their best one yet, and can't wait for Monday.

People should look accurate, this facepack doesn't look right just like vanilla "eastern faces" didn't look right for Ethiopians or Andalusians. Just because you buy into being an emasculated politically-correct sheep doesn't mean everyone has to.
 

Hackworthy

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Calling someone with "girl" in their username "Emasculated". Priceless. Let's at least pay some attention to etymology when picking our insults, shall we? ;)

Having girl in your name on the internet doesn't mean anything.
 

unmerged(150945)

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Perhaps what is necessary is multiple portraits for some cultures in the game. Some Maghreb characters should be black in addition to the current "Arabic" appearances. While Southern Europeans should range from the appearances in the Mediterranean face pack, to the vanilla North European appearances.

If not possible (it definitely wouldn't be possible as a mod, but it might be possible for Paradox), then there's a different way:

Italian could be split into North and South Italian, and Maghreb into Maghreb Arabic and Maghreb Berber. Splitting Greeks would be a bad idea, but the Iberians could probably be all Mediterranean except Castilians and Basques who would be the vanilla pan-European appearances (still with default black hair).
 
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tuareg109

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People should look accurate, this facepack doesn't look right just like vanilla "eastern faces" didn't look right for Ethiopians or Andalusians. Just because you buy into being an emasculated politically-correct sheep doesn't mean everyone has to.

Hear hear!
 

Federalist girl

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I'm not particularly concerned at what people call me, so we needn't dwell on that.

The point was unless we split cultures -- which would have big gameplay consequences including on people who won't have the DLC -- then northern and southern Italians have to share one face pack. Since these packs are approximations and not attempts at pure verisimilitude, then it's fine.

The people demanding these things are demanding extra complications that will lead to gameplay changes to fit an optional cosmetic pack. These things are best left to mods that give people the option to do those things without burdening the vanilla experience.
 

Gunnarr

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they should really give up on the face dlcs.
 

Marcion

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The fact that skin color is such a sticking point for some people that they start throwing insults is pretty telling, isn't it?

Even the fact that it's just aesthetics notwithstanding, unless you build a time machine there's no way of possibly knowing exactly what people looked like back then. Just guessing is all anyone can do, and your own guesses are no better than Paradox's.
 

tuareg109

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The fact that skin color is such a sticking point for some people that they start throwing insults is pretty telling, isn't it?

Even the fact that it's just aesthetics notwithstanding, unless you build a time machine there's no way of possibly knowing exactly what people looked like back then. Just guessing is all anyone can do, and your own guesses are no better than Paradox's.

Murals
Paintings
Art
Histories
Play and Poetry
Pottery, on occasion

You're right in that there's no way of knowing EXACTLY how people looked back then, but then we might as well make Erik the Pagan look like an Igbo tribesman, and Mansa Musa look like Varg Vikernes, because we have no idea what they looked like.
We do have a very good general idea, and from the social situation and commentary back then (especially the Moor-hating Reconquistadors holding up their pale arms to show blue veins), we know that highborn Spaniards and Italian tended to be pale. From paintings and murals we know their hair was generally black.
The only exception that I know of is the obviously the Sicilian Normans, whose hair color would range wildly from black to red to yellow.

If it's racism to want historical rulers to look like they are described (for example, Henry II of England doesn't look anything like how chroniclers write that he did), then people suffering from true racism should be deeply offended. For that matter, the characters' traits aren't all right either. Take a look at Caligula's traits and tell me they describe his personality, as historically described.
It would be a bit of work and research for Paradox (though reading and insertion of traits/appearance should be a lot easier than adding in events and molding faces), but it would add so much to immersion.

This is nothing about race, and all about immersion and reality.
 

BlackBarook

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Well, artists and their patrons have been known to 'blend' the truth when it came to depicting people in paintings or art in general to meet political, religious, or cultural ends. But I'm just being a nitpick.

This is nothing about race, and all about immersion and reality.
It kinda does since the issue is realistic, unrealistic depictions of ethnicities. (Being a nitpick again! D8)

I don't understand why PI doesn't just give us the tools to create our own face packs. Or at least give us some sliders like the Sims.
 

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Murals
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Art
Histories
Play and Poetry
Pottery, on occasion

You can't assume depictions in art reflect reality, especially at this time in history. "Realism" itself as a concept in art didn't even begin to emerge until the Renaissance, and even then there were plenty of caveats. One of the big ones was, of course, the pale complexion, which was seen as an aesthetic ideal, as it still is today in many cultures. The fact that it was a desirable trait makes it all the more questionable whether it was really as prevalent as it's made out. Plenty of nobles at this time would've had severe cases of gout and couldn't walk unaided, or would've had scars from smallpox and other diseases, but you'll never see that on a mural. A painting is not a photograph and wasn't meant to be.
 

Mithfir

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This better be an early alpha. matilda of tuscany looks like she had botox lip injections that went horribly wrong.

362660_crusaderkings2_dlc_mediterranean_faces_screenshot07_medium.jpg

Matilda, mi amore? :unsure:
 
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