Maybe this is why Ming is too strong?

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Madae

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I just noticed that if you demand manpower tribute, it actually adds up over whatever your manpower cap is. Is this working as intended? Maybe this is what causes them to recruit over their land cap and field huge armies? And also why they never, ever seem to run out of manpower when you fight them? Except in the early game, of course... which would make sense. They wouldn't have the necessary resources to keep up a war with a horde, and that's why that would be the easiest way to take them out if you were trying to. Late game when they're making a huge amount of money, they just keep throwing units out until their income hits a certain point.
 

KaiserWilhelmI

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I find that usually they run out of manpower, and them come the mercenaries, hordes of mercenaries, thanks to their big income.
 

Tavior

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Ming are very beatable, just not a pushover. That is appropriate.

Out a few dozen of games I only ever saw Ming actually running out of manpower and losing mandate, keeping their tributaries in line somehow?!, down to zero. They were somehow still holding it together no thank to their massive income and full idea group unlock ahead of time.

That was more of a special case than anything else. They certainly could use some tuning down.
 

Badesumofu

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When I say they are beatable, I mean that you can attack them and beat them.

I would like to see some kind of mechanic that made it more likely than 'not at all' for Qing to show up sometimes. But the whole 'Ming are OP INVINCIBLE' meme is nonsense. They do pose a non-trivial challenge but that is hardly a bad thing.
 

Tavior

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When I say they are beatable, I mean that you can attack them and beat them.

I would like to see some kind of mechanic that made it more likely than 'not at all' for Qing to show up sometimes. But the whole 'Ming are OP INVINCIBLE' meme is nonsense. They do pose a non-trivial challenge but that is hardly a bad thing.

What I am saying is it is very rare for AI to manage to wreck Ming. By the time anyone grow strong enough to wreck Ming it is usually too far to late because Ming has full mandate unlocked and you can't force them cancel and lose progressions especially if AI or you aren't one of the religious that can get CB on mandate of heaven.
 

Badesumofu

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Agree that it would be nice to occasionally see Ming fail without player intervention.

Disagree that they are too difficult for a player to take down. Any European Major should be able to beat them in the 1600s. Anyone who starts near them can become tributary, eat the other tributaries, and then revoke tributary status.
 

Rainbow Mirage

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I actually saw AI Chagatai break free of Ming and forced the nomad frontier event in my recent zoroastrian custom nation game. I'm not even playing in that area of the world. :eek:

Ming's still strong because of their economy but it's the first time i see an AI horde do so well.
 

Troopperi

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I just noticed that if you demand manpower tribute, it actually adds up over whatever your manpower cap is. Is this working as intended?

I think the manpower cap is just for monthly regeneration, at least noble estate interaction which gives manpower goes also over the limit, so probably all "lumps" of manpower will.

Also as others have said, they can field a lot of mercenaries due to their high income. While attacking Ming directly should make you face all their might, IMO they shouldn't fully mobilize when their tributaries are attacked, or maybe the whole "protecting tributaries" thing should be replaced.
 

gasior

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Ming is strong as it should be... In my opinion mongol/manchu hordes should be buffed instead of ming. Right now hordes are lackluster and cannot even be close to bringing mandate down. Manchu dies to korea and mongol culture group hordes either die by ming or are weak enough to never break tribute
 

Stanleykubrick

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Ming being OP at home is fine. Being able to take their deathstacks to Persia, Moscow and beyond is not. But the game doesn't model logistics so these powers are one and the same.
This is imo the most annoying thing about them. But there could be better ways of simulating that...
The fact that declaring war on one of their tributaries makes them fully mobilize and go for a Total War is not realistic not historical:

-For example in real history Ryukyu got invaded and vassalised by Japan. If this were to happen in EU4, that would result in 100k ming troops landing and invanding Japan.

One way they could better model that would be that when a tributary gets invaded they would have the option to either:
a) send manpower and money as subsidies
b) More prefferably send condottieri - like troops. Basically send an army up to a certain size for free to help their subjects. The size of the army could be tied down to subject development.
For example, it would make sense for them to mobilize say 40k troops to defend Korea-> high development, but a lower ammount of troops to defend Kara Del->very low development. Smaller tributaries, in any case provide smaller tributes. It is very odd to see them go on total war, just to maintain a tributary status that provides them with a 2 ducats per year, when they have an income of 100s of ducats /year.

What do you guys think on that?
 

Tavior

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In game's time period Ming was the richest and most populous country in the world. They are supposed to be hard to beat.

They may be rich in real life history doesn't meant they SHOULD be on equal footing fighting western europe by the 1800 and fielding 250 mercenaries and laugh all the way to the peace conference.

Short version: Gameplay trump historical.
 

IoannesBarbarus

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This is just how the manpower cap works. Manpower grows up to the cap and decays down to the cap. There's nothing special here about Ming.
 

caedussl

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Ming is strong because they have massive development and no realistic challengers outside of a player. Ming should be insanely powerful, but there should be a realistic chance they fall to another dynasty, instead of spending the entire game as one of the largest powers with full mandate.

I don’t think anyone will suggest they’re unbeatable for a player. They’re just unbeatable to an AI in Asia, and probably everyone else unless Russia hyperblobs.
 

LoyalistRedcoat

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This is imo the most annoying thing about them. But there could be better ways of simulating that...
The fact that declaring war on one of their tributaries makes them fully mobilize and go for a Total War is not realistic not historical:

-For example in real history Ryukyu got invaded and vassalised by Japan. If this were to happen in EU4, that would result in 100k ming troops landing and invanding Japan.

One way they could better model that would be that when a tributary gets invaded they would have the option to either:
a) send manpower and money as subsidies
b) More prefferably send condottieri - like troops. Basically send an army up to a certain size for free to help their subjects. The size of the army could be tied down to subject development.
For example, it would make sense for them to mobilize say 40k troops to defend Korea-> high development, but a lower ammount of troops to defend Kara Del->very low development. Smaller tributaries, in any case provide smaller tributes. It is very odd to see them go on total war, just to maintain a tributary status that provides them with a 2 ducats per year, when they have an income of 100s of ducats /year.

What do you guys think on that?

The conditori idea sounds great imo.
 

Madae

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I really don't understand the argument that "Ming was historically powerful, so they should be powerful", especially when you're basically saying "all the time", because that's what ends up happening, which absolutely isn't true. It would be more accurate to say "Ming was historically powerful, but also extremely decadent and lazy". Historically, Qing was formed in 1636, and finished off Ming in 1644. Aside from the fact that it's basically impossible to do a full conquer of Ming in that many years, that's the middle of the game, with 150+ years left. Jianzhou and all the other hordes have so very little going for them here, and their strength in the game is measured by the amount of provinces, development, and tech they have, which isn't an accurate representation at all, not to mention that they are often conquered by Korea, Ming, or just sit there doing nothing important, like they have zero aspirations with what their cultural strength provides them for so little a time span.

I know it's futile to argue gameplay and history, but we are playing a game based on history, that tries to add a lot of historical references, and definitely tries to steer it in a certain historical direction. This should apply to Ming, in that they should only have 100 years or so of stability before they start getting hammered hard by random events that severely threaten them. That would be an accurate representation of Ming.

Yes, Ming is powerful, but let's not forget that they were also conquered. You will almost never see that as it currently stands... definitely not without player intervention. Nevermind that Ming crosses the world due to "unrealistic logistics" or whatever that was... that part is actually feasible and arguable, assuming historical Ming cared enough to try (which they didn't)... They were easily just as capable of traversing the world like all the major western powers, they just didn't... most probably because they weren't even around when all of that really started taking off. We're basically talking about one of the biggest upheavals during one of the most active periods of our world history... no one knows what they could have accomplished.

A thought I had was perhaps adding a crisis on the end of the Mandate horde disaster... like once it starts ticking down, it's basically a near-game ending time bomb for them that they absolutely have to fix before they are well and truly screwed. I'm thinking that once it hits 0 (in addition to having an active horde disaster, not just having 0 Mandate), they should immediately have an unwinnable civil war that splits all of their northern provinces into independent nations, and moves Ming to its southern provinces... basically forcing them to lose all of their power. I would think it should also remove all of their current armies and money, and instead give them a loyalist stack to help defend in the early years of this separation. That would be a lot more accurate than what we have now. Not only that, but it would also be fun. Something that can easily be avoided, if the player stays on top of it, or something that could be considered a challenge (getting back the Mandate of Heaven for a doomed empire, against a Ming-powerful Qing usurper). An alternate path to this would be having this event tick off once a horde conquers Beijing (which you are basically assuming the horde disaster is active and Mandate is close to 0)... so there will still be a rush to try and beat Ming, but it adds a much more interesting spin on things.
 
Last edited:

holyvigil

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Paradox have stated they don't like making things historical 1650s and on. They try to keep things status quo 1650 and on. That's why you never see a Napoleonic Europe, a modernized Chinese government, a decadent Ottoman Empire, The Mughals, etc. It is paradox's goal to make historical events happen that are pre 1600s. Then have nothing all that important historically (as in mess up the balance of the powers) occur post 1600.
 

Madae

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Paradox have stated they don't like making things historical 1650s and on. They try to keep things status quo 1650 and on. That's why you never see a Napoleonic Europe, a modernized Chinese government, a decadent Ottoman Empire, The Mughals, etc. It is paradox's goal to make historical events happen that are pre 1600s. Then have nothing all that important historically (as in mess up the balance of the powers) occur post 1600.

And that's fine, for the most part. Maybe it's dumb to think it should apply just to Ming, but that's kind of where I stand on it. My suggestion could work pre-1600, though. The only time its feasible to challenge Ming as a horde is long before 1600 anyway, so it wouldn't necessarily change the overall focus. Not only is it way easier to do it then, but it also gives you a lot of time to play around with the game once you complete it.