Maybe the backlash isn't that bad

[PanzerCorps]

I'm mainly thinking of the Hearts of Iron 3 and, a bit more unrelatedly, Mass Effect 3 releases. And I'm sure many other releases in gaming. The idea is that so much hype is built up for a game before its release, and so many unrealistic expectations, that once it is actually fully released it could never hope to be as good as the version people had in their heads of it, and it turns out into an awful release.

Maybe if people are learning right now which features aren't in, and we're getting all potential disappointments out before anyone has made an actual purchasin decision, when the game is actually released it will be far better received. It is certainly also the more ethical thing to do, instead of building blind hype, obscuring mechanics, and getting money off people who this game maybe simply isn't for.

So, just trying to see some positivity in this mess we've found ourself in.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

So, just trying to see some positivity in this mess we've found ourself in.

What mess?

Excitable people running in circles screaming "alas, it is as I feared!", "the sky is falling", or "best game ever!" on the basis of developer diaries and comments, and less excitable people reading their own hopes and fears into the same but moderating their behaviour and attempting to start serious arguments based on minimal information to often hilarious effect is not a mess.

It is business as usual!

 

[Cypres]

I personally disagree with quite a few design choices of IR as seen so far from screenshots/DDs, however without the whole picture i will just wait until we see the game in action.

 

[spartansociety]

It will be the same as any PDS game. Casuals will come in, in big numbers and do the whole "this game is broken" "devs should die" hostile and crazy threads. That will slowly go away and be replaced with people arguing whether the economic model is realistic for Republic Rome.

 

[fabius]

I do agree an injection of realistic expectations would be advantageous.

1. I think the new P'dox model is to release games in better shape and better looking, but easier to access which can seem like less depth. This seems to have the benefit of getting more people into the games early. Hoi4 being the example. Then slowly add depth and more mechanics with dlc.

I actually like this model as we get much longer support for a game.

2. The game will be much more than the sum of the parts as stated in DDs. I'd like more unit and combat depth that the Unit DD pointed towards. But we don't know how it will play with tech, country flavour, combat mechanics and the overall game.

 

[Nicolas-]

Being a game developer is one of the hardest jobs nowadays.

No matter what you do you can't please everyone. I think the entire mana/pops thing is blown out of proportion. The developers could easily make a change to that if they find a better idea that actually works well with the rest of the features. To me, it's more of a minor feature anyway. I won't base my decision to buy the game based on how pops are promoted. Even mods could probably change that.

There's a lot more to look at before jumping to conclusions

 

[Eldoran]

Well pds im sure does know about expectation Management but that does not always go so well. But its always necessary for good marketing. But i dont know where this here is messed up. Tbh its quite mundane yet. Have you been in the stellaris forum after release or pre 2.0? Ck forum after rajas of india. Hoi 4 pre und post launch. That was messed up

 

[Cat Crusade]

How paradox game backlashes work:

Step 1: This game is gonna be amazing!
Step 2: This feature/lack of feature ruined it, boycott!
Step 3: Game is out, hype!
Step 4: Game is broken, fix!
Step 5: Game needs more content, release DLC!
Step 6: Why hasn't x been fixed yet!?
Step 7: You fixed x but ruined y, I can't play anymore!
Step 9: Why do you release z when y hasn't been fixed yet!?
Step 10: After 700 hours playing game needs more content!
Step 11: Why does the game have so much DLC!?
Step 12: You broke the mods!
Step 13: repeat 6 to 12 in random order

 

[masterui]

I for one feel that the devs have really dropped the ball on this one.

They created false expectations for some fans with the mention of Pops on the stage of PDXcon knowing full well that they didn't have a proper Pops system ala Vicky2 and M&T and that fans wanting said Pops would feel cheated and manipulated.

One dev then kept harassing fans wanting a non EU4:Rome with snark remarks that led nowhere and only instigated more divergence.

Anyway, I am disapointed with what has been shown up to now (mana for no good reason instead of better system that doesn't make the game feel like a table top game, a less impressive and complex system for pops than bloody mods). I will keep on watching the dev-diaries, but I can't help but feel that we will be left with a husk of a game on release yet again and after the debacle that Stellaris was and HOI4 still is... I am just not up for another one of those.

 

[BobbyDylan]

How paradox game backlashes work:

Step 1: This game is gonna be amazing!
Step 2: This feature/lack of feature ruined it, boycott!
Step 3: Game is out, hype!
Step 4: Game is broken, fix!
Step 5: Game needs more content, release DLC!
Step 6: Why hasn't x been fixed yet!?
Step 7: You fixed x but ruined y, I can't play anymore!
Step 9: Why do you release z when y hasn't been fixed yet!?
Step 10: After 700 hours playing game needs more content!
Step 11: Why does the game have so much DLC!?
Step 12: You broke the mods!
Step 13: repeat 6 to 12 in random order

This has all happened before.

It'll all happen again.

 

[MrNewVegas]

I do agree an injection of realistic expectations would be advantageous.

1. I think the new P'dox model is to release games in better shape and better looking, but easier to access which can seem like less depth. This seems to have the benefit of getting more people into the games early. Hoi4 being the example. Then slowly add depth and more mechanics with dlc.

I actually like this model as we get much longer support for a game.

2. The game will be much more than the sum of the parts as stated in DDs. I'd like more unit and combat depth that the Unit DD pointed towards. But we don't know how it will play with tech, country flavour, combat mechanics and the overall game.

I mean lets be clear here: Paradox does not know how to release finished games. Adding more mechanics with DLCs is good insofar as not adding those mechanics would be bad. What I hate is when they put something behind a paywall that is so obviously this-should-be-on-release level. I think all of the diplomacy system in stellaris fits into that, so much CK2 DLC is just "we refuse to even allow you to play this nation until you buy our DLC, lack of mechanics that you as a player don't care about and just want to play muslims" be damned.

And look, there's nothing wrong with doing this, so long as you're releasing more Dharma and less Cossacks

 

[Merrivale]

How paradox game backlashes work:

Step 1: This game is gonna be amazing!
Step 2: This feature/lack of feature ruined it, boycott!
Step 3: Game is out, hype!
Step 4: Game is broken, fix!
Step 5: Game needs more content, release DLC!
Step 6: Why hasn't x been fixed yet!?
Step 7: You fixed x but ruined y, I can't play anymore!
Step 9: Why do you release z when y hasn't been fixed yet!?
Step 10: After 700 hours playing game needs more content!
Step 11: Why does the game have so much DLC!?
Step 12: You broke the mods!
Step 13: repeat 6 to 12 in random order

A post this great deserves to live for all-time.

 

[fabius]

The positive flip side to the mini 'backlash' is it shows people have high hopes for the Imperator already
Far better to have a busy forum with backlash waves than tumble weed rolling through.

 

[Denkt]

The amount of people on this forum is so few it don't matter. Consider how well their games have been Selling even with all the negative stuff you see on these forums, I would not worry at all.

Maybe just let the developers do their job and see what game it will be Before pulling the trigger?

 

[hewhoispale]

It will be the same as any PDS game. Casuals will come in, in big numbers and do the whole "this game is broken" "devs should die" hostile and crazy threads. That will slowly go away and be replaced with people arguing whether the economic model is realistic for Republic Rome.

Are we pretending that the hostile and toxic members of these forums, or any online sub-culture group for that matter, are transient "casuals" and not long-standing "true" followers? That's laughable.

 

[Eldoran]

I for one feel that the devs have really dropped the ball on this one.

They created false expectations for some fans with the mention of Pops on the stage of PDXcon knowing full well that they didn't have a proper Pops system ala Vicky2 and M&T and that fans wanting said Pops would feel cheated and manipulated.

One dev then kept harassing fans wanting a non EU4:Rome with snark remarks that led nowhere and only instigated more divergence.

Anyway, I am disapointed with what has been shown up to now (mana for no good reason instead of better system that doesn't make the game feel like a table top game, a less impressive and complex system for pops than bloody mods). I will keep on watching the dev-diaries, but I can't help but feel that we will be left with a husk of a game on release yet again and after the debacle that Stellaris was and HOI4 still is... I am just not up for another one of those.

Well the term pops is not unique to vicky 2. And for everyone who knows vicky they probably know eu rome too and it was pretty obvious that its more pops ala rome and not vicky.
I saw no harrasment of fans from devs proof or it didnt happen
You can be dissapointed as much as you like. I for myself behold any real judgement until its released and possibly i played a bit cause a feature can look great and turns out to be bad and vice versa.
But tbh this is nothing new here. As stated by cat crusade

 

[RagingJaws]

This has all happened before.

It'll all happen again.

WHAT HAS BEEN WILL BE

 

[EvilMonk3y]

I personally disagree with quite a few design choices of IR as seen so far from screenshots/DDs, however without the whole picture i will just wait until we see the game in action.

Couldn't agree more. I am fairly disappointed with the information from the last few days but it is purely because I want the game to succeed. There is no point kicking it while it is down with such a limited overview.

 

[Denkt]

Couldn't agree more. I am fairly disappointed with the information from the last few days but it is purely because I want the game to succeed. There is no point kicking it while it is down with such a limited overview.

Im would say Im 100% sure this game will succeed, it look to be very good and seems to be their biggest Project yet.

HOI4 was the same thing with people complaining at the DDs and still the game have managed to sell over a million copies.

Compared to EU: Rome this game look like it is going to be a very nice improvement.

 

[Arheo]

In my experience, ‘backlash’ is quite a negative term, but you’re right - it isn’t always bad.

I’ve seen a great deal of opinions over the last few days, some expressed more forcefully than others, and many of which contain valuable feedback and criticism.

It’s understandable that people feel ready to pass judgement on a game based on what they know, but what they know isn’t everything. Similarly, making promises early on that end up being impossible to keep, is why we don’t simply spew out all the plans and intentions at the very beginning. The downside to that, is that everybody has created an ideal version of IR in their head, and it is difficult (read; impossible) to meet all those expectations.

I enjoyed reading this thread, particularly because comments on both sides of the fence have been thought-out and on the whole, well meant.

Ultimately, we do listen - ‘the devs’ are not faceless corporate drones; we love playing PDS games as much as you. We are trying our best to create a game that will be loved, so, please keep criticising, keep suggesting, and keep telling us your expectations. They may not all be met, but I guarantee you that every thread posted here is read by one or more of us.

What is unfortunate, is when criticism becomes anger. It’s hard to expect it not to, with the internet being what it is, but for a team who are genuinely invested as players as well as devs, who are working (hard!) to create a title that will be fun as well as immersive, it can be incredibly disheartening, and is rarely productive.

Tl;dr: Rational discussion ftw.

All best,

Peter