Max speed light tank divisions as Germany

[indika_tates]

I usually when playing Germany I went directly for Panzer III through URSS treaty. But in a recent game I tried a different approach. Take in mind that it's designed for SP. Please, there is no point on arguing about how viable is or not on MP. I don't play MP, I have no idea how to play MP and I designed it for my SP campaigns.

I made a beeline to Leopard as early as possible with the armor bonus you get with this division setup:

- 20 Width (10 light tanks)
- Henschel (+5% speed, +10% reliability)
- Brausitch (+10% divisions speed)
- Guderian (+10% speed)
- Mobile Warfare (Obvious +10% speed)
- Signal
- Engineers
- Maintenance company
- Recon
- Field hospital

With this setup and a panzer leader general you get +40% base speed + terrain modifiers (+25% rivers & forests and so on). With the leopard's base speed + theorists + tank designer & modified engine and this bonuses is not too hard to get something close to 25km/h on plains (2x faster than base motorized divisions speed). It's crazy how quick these divisions get behind enemy lines without giving enough time to react. Organization is not too low because support companies add it for having more org base than the light tank divisions. I mean, infantry divisions without anti-tank equipment are severely punished on proper terrain.

I used four divisions with this setup on each flank against the soviets. The trick was to manually draw four lines behind enemy the front to avoid the soviets to cut it. I had encountered some resistance but two/three of the four divisions were able to continue the maneuver.

The result was amazing. It was the first time I managed to envelop an entire soviet front (more than 150 divisions). I used motorized divisions to quickly fill gaps behind Leopards to avoid any attempts from the AI to open a supply line.
Light tanks are very cheap and you don't need tungsten, so it's another advantage.

I recommend if you haven't tried it yet to give it a try

Edit: Final stats with mobile doctrine finished. I changed the arty support to field hospital because art lowers your org. Hospital increases it.

 

[seattle]

I recommend using this alternate German NF-tree:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=746015433
Amongst other things, it eliminates the Panzer III rush.

I usually go for speed 12 medium tanks. I always set the base speed at 12 via engine boost to match the mot brigades in my tank divisions.
Never tried light tanks before, but I'm always interested in the fastest possible units.
Germany is so wonderful to play with all the mentioned speed buffs. Medium tanks are good enough for huge encirclements in my experience. In my last run I destroyed 4 mio Soviet troops in half a year, mostly due to pockets.

I think it would be interesting to go mass light tanks, like 60 divisions of width 20 light tanks with lvl.5 guns, some armour and lvl.5 engines. Not the fastest possible, but still faster than anything on the battlefield while packing a decent punch.
I wonder though: Won't a tank div without mot/mech be very low on org?

 

[indika_tates]

I recommend using this alternate German NF-tree:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=746015433
Amongst other things, it eliminates the Panzer III rush.

I think it would be interesting to go mass light tanks, like 60 divisions of width 20 light tanks with lvl.5 guns, some armour and lvl.5 engines. Not the fastest possible, but still faster than anything on the battlefield while packing a decent punch.
I wonder though: Won't a tank div without mot/mech be very low on org?

About 25 org more or less which is pretty acceptable considering that if the AI can't pierce the unit you steamroll the infantry anyway making pockets. For breaching the front I used a standard 5xmech 5xmedium tanks which is more punch than you really need in SP.

There is something about full tank divisions that also work with superior firepower doctrine. Since integrated support add +10 org to support companies you can use it to increase the org of your tank divisions. The org is still too low to defend any counter-attack but the high value of soft & hard attack + hardness + breakthrough + armor value ruins enemy ORG very quickly. The thing is to test if it's better with SP doctrine to have 10 width full tank divisions instead of 20 because it may be better to have smaller tank divisions that get more benefit from integrated support.

 

[cunningstunts]

About 25 org more or less which is pretty acceptable considering that if the AI can't pierce the unit you steamroll the infantry anyway making pockets. For breaching the front I used a standard 5xmech 5xmedium tanks which is more punch than you really need in SP.

Play with the Expert AI mod

 

[indika_tates]

Play with the Expert AI mod

I do One of the best mods around.

 

[SteveStevenson]

It's a pizza template with extra cheese. I can see it being useful for border worming your way to the victory points (and resupplying at said victory points).

Aside from cheesing, it's not too useful. The first thing it is attacked by (assuming something can catch it) will destroy most of it's equipment it because of the combination of low health and defensiveness (Less than 50 most likely).

 

[indika_tates]

It's a pizza template with extra cheese. I can see it being useful for border worming your way to the victory points (and resupplying at said victory points).

Aside from cheesing, it's not too useful. The first thing it is attacked by (assuming something can catch it) will destroy most of it's equipment it because of the combination of low health and defensiveness (Less than 50 most likely).

Assuming something can catch it. That's the point. Take in mind you have also motorized & infantry divisions that can support any counter attack and you can retreat to a friendly province when being attacked and continue swarming victory points. I don't see "cheese" in the template. There is nothing written about having a full tank division is cheesing the game or not. Cheesing is having 2 width motorized division spam to capture victory points. I wouldn't call it a exploiting design because you use "legit" advantages of Germany to achieve the higher speed you can.

The defense is not less than 50. It's 92 on my template. A low value, but definitively not 50. About being useful, it is. I think there is no unit that can encircle the enemy as fast as leopards do.

It's not a defensive unit, it's an offensive one and the breakthrough value is 700+- when you finish the doctrine tree. So it's far from being useless. Just give it a try and test it. I did it and I'm pretty satisfied with it.

This is my second attempt with this setup. On the first game it was only for testing if it was viable or not. This time I went heavy production with this setup. It's still the AI, but I don't play MP so for me it's valid. You need a lot of motorized infantry to cover the gaps, about 20 divisions would be enough but at this time I don't have this number. As you can see there is a huge number of soviet units trapped inside.

Two months later, the war was over.

 

[mergele]

@indika_tates I highly recommend modifying your posted screenshot to remove the swastika, otherwise the whole thread will get either blocked or maybe even deleted (Can't remember which one currently).

 

[indika_tates]

@indika_tates I highly recommend modifying your posted screenshot to remove the swastika, otherwise the whole thread will get either blocked or maybe even deleted (Can't remember which one currently).

Thank you, it's because the german realism mod I forgot I had installed.

 

[Celdur]

Lucky for you the AI doesn't keep reserves nor does it know how to counter attack.

 

[seattle]

This is my second attempt with this setup. On the first game it was only for testing if it was viable or not. This time I went heavy production with this setup. It's still the AI, but I don't play MP so for me it's valid. You need a lot of motorized infantry to cover the gaps, about 20 divisions would be enough but at this time I don't have this number. As you can see there is a huge number of soviet units trapped inside.

What I really don't like is that you also need ~20 mot divs. That means you have all these shiny 18 base speed light tanks, but you are also dependent on the much slower speed 12 mots.
I'd be way more interested in an all-out light tank blitz force. Infantry for the initial breakthrough, then activate light tanks' battleplans, blitz and infantry fills the gaps via railroad transport. Then again, this may finally be a reason to use the mot-template instead of simply incorporating them into the medium tank template.

#tungsten
Germany has easy and secure access to tungsten plus the number of factories to buy it. I think that argument would be more fitting for smaller nations without tungsten or chromium.

#signal company
I never use them as Germany. The way I understand them: they increase planning speed and decrease the disadvantage of poor leaders. Germany has brilliant planning speed and brilliant leaders. Am I missing something here? Why do you use signal companies? Also why field hospitals on tank divisions?
I think arty and AT support would be much better to offset the weaker light tanks.

#encirclement pictures
Against the a.i. those don't prove anything unfortunately. With pimped medium tanks I often get 100+ division pockets and finishing the Soviet a.i. in one offensive with 4-5 mio inflicted casualties is normal. Plus, you conducted Barb in 1940, maybe Soviet a.i. will have better AT-values in 1941/42.

I'd be very interested in MP experiences with light tank spam.
Also I wonder how the light tank force will hold up in other theatres, especially later in the war. Doesn't the light tank branch end in 1943? Let's say the SP/MP game continues into the mid 40s and the Allies are moving on to modern tanks. I'm afraid that light tanks might be completely outperformed then and modern tanks are quite fast as well.

 

[Alex_brunius]

#signal company
I never use them as Germany. The way I understand them: they increase planning speed and decrease the disadvantage of poor leaders. Germany has brilliant planning speed and brilliant leaders. Am I missing something here? Why do you use signal companies?

The big thing with signal companies is that they increase the reinforcement chance your divisions have to join combat. 12% Initiative = +6% increased chance to reinforce from the base unit alone, and then IIRC +3% more per tech.

Everyone except Soviet with NKVD focus can make good use of this when rotating units faster into combat, or adding additional directions of attacks to get more width into the battle faster.

I'd be very interested in MP experiences with light tank spam.
Also I wonder how the light tank force will hold up in other theatres, especially later in the war. Doesn't the light tank branch end in 1943? Let's say the SP/MP game continues into the mid 40s and the Allies are moving on to modern tanks. I'm afraid that light tanks might be completely outperformed then and modern tanks are quite fast as well.

Actually the Light tank branch end in 1941 even!

I've manage to make German Light tanks ( in normal divisions with fast MOT ) work in MP but it's success depends on a few things:

• An early war, 1940 latest
• An enemy which doesn't get early Medium tanks
• An enemy that you are comfortable with being able to at least micro equally good as, to take advantage of the maneuverability
• An enemy that don't make use of defense in depth with good mobile units deployed behind their lines
  
• An enemy not getting large Air superiority slowing your tanks down to half speed

If your enemy can manage to cut off and isolate even a single of your "snakes" extending in behind enemy lines, everything inside that point gets the massive "enemy supplysource" penalty and starts moving no faster then snails, which for units relying on speed to survive means they are as good as dead.

 

[seattle]

The big thing with signal companies is that they increase the reinforcement chance your divisions have to join combat. 12% Initiative = +6% increased chance to reinforce from the base unit alone, and then IIRC +3% more per tech.

Everyone except Soviet with NKVD focus can make good use of this when rotating units faster into combat, or adding additional directions of attacks to get more width into the battle faster.

Isn't that more important in width 40 divs than small light tank divs? Plus, he doesn't intend to do too much prolonged fighting with his blitzers anyways.
Be it as it may, what support brigade would you sacrifice to keep signal in a panzer div?

In my opinion mandatory:
- engineer
- recon
- maintenance

nice to have:
- arty
- AT

depends on the situation:
- signal (prolonged fighting with high width units, poor leaders, poor battleplan speed)
- AA (I always go mass fighters, so I don't need AA at all)
- logistics (heavy tanks yeah, light tanks probably not)

In his case I would go with: engineer, recon, maintenance, AT, arty
Light tanks have very poor hard attack and piercing, making AT support absolutely vital!

---------------------------

One more argument pro light tanks vs. medium:
The German doctrine path boosts one tank stat through the roof: breakthrough.
That is a stat that where light tanks are almost equally good at as medium tanks.
Plus: all speed bonuses benefit light tanks much more than any other tank branch!

PS:
#air support
Maybe this can actually work. Germany's air doctrine path turns CAS into killing machines. If you can secure air superiority and grant CAS assistance to your light tanks, then they might very well be defeating stronger opposition.

 

[bERt0r]

I have done max speed light tank warfare as germany to great success in multiplayer so it is definitly viable. Your tank division template however is bad. Never build pure tank templates, they have low hp and org and you will lose a lot of those expensive tanks. Use the 4 tank 2 SPA 3 Mot template. You also dont need field hospitals in tank templates, replace that with artillery, rocket artillery or AA.

 

[Alex_brunius]

I have done max speed light tank warfare as germany to great success in multiplayer so it is definitly viable. Your tank division template however is bad. Never build pure tank templates, they have low hp and org and you will lose a lot of those expensive tanks. Use the 4 tank 2 SPA 3 Mot template.

But if you include Motorized in the template they are by definition no longer max speed, since maximum speed of light tanks is much higher then what motorized can support? ( With MOT, they get no where near the 20.7km/h shown in OP... )

Plus: all speed bonuses benefit light tanks much more than any other tank branch!

If we talk about tank divisions including MOT then I feel it's the other way around. Then Light tanks don't need these speed bonuses at all to achieve 12km/h, Medium tanks only need some of them, and Heavy tanks can fully use all speed bonuses since they won't be able to reach 12km/h regardless of what you do.

For the pure Light tank division in OP you are ofcourse right.

 

[seattle]

But if you include Motorized in the template they are by definition no longer max speed, since maximum speed of light tanks is much higher then what motorized can support? ( With MOT, they get no where near the 20.7km/h shown in OP... )

And then you'd have 0 reason to go light+mot instead of medium+mot.

 

[bERt0r]

The German speed boni don't only work on tanks, most of them they work on all divisions AFAIK. Sure if you want to do racing build those pure tank divisions. If you want to win a war use your ressources more efficently.

@seattle
light tank speed is 10/12/14 km/h
medium tank speed is 8/9/10 km/h
mot speed is 12

 

[seattle]

The German speed boni don't only work on tanks, most of them they work on all divisions AFAIK. Sure if you want to do racing build those pure tank divisions. If you want to win a war use your ressources more efficently.

@seattle
light tank speed is 10/12/14 km/h
medium tank speed is 8/9/10 km/h
mot speed is 12

Add lvl.5 engines and medium tanks reach mot speed pretty soon. Again, if you add mots, then there's no reason to go light tanks.

 

[bERt0r]

Go ahead, waste your army xp then. Don't forget to do the same for your SPGs too if you add them. And do it again until you reach modern tanks.

The speed approach for Germany only works if you go for an early war. That means you will have to produce many tanks before the war starts. Blitzkrieg...

Btw, just putting 5 points into speed dips your reliability into the 50% region IIRC

 

[seattle]

Go ahead, waste your army xp then. Don't forget to do the same for your SPGs too if you add them. And do it again until you reach modern tanks.
The speed approach for Germany only works if you go for an early war. That means you will have to produce many tanks before the war starts. Blitzkrieg...
Btw, just putting 5 points into speed dips your reliability into the 50% region IIRC

I'm a proponent of mass production of good enough material as Germany.
1939 tanks with lvl.5 engines, some reliability for most of the war. Attach mots and mot arty to them and you got a relatively cheap and powerful mobile force in masses.
There's a huge difference between spending ~500 army exp and regularly upgrading to the newest model with all variants and fully pimped SPGs. We're talking about several thousand army exp.

If you can get medium tanks to the speed of mots, then I don't see a single argument pro light tanks (Germany can easily acquire the necessary tungsten).