matrilineal marriage, how common were they in the middle ages?

[rashtrakut]

Just an example of a matrilineal marriage in medieval times:
This is taken from Wikipedia - In 1269 the Count of Ventimiglia, Gugliemo Pietro I Balbo married Eudossia Laskaris, daughter of Emperor Theodore II Laskaris and assumed his prestigious name. From them started the dynasty of the Lascaris of Tenda. They maintained the sovereign County of Tenda till 1501 when the last of them, Anna Lascaris, married Renato of Savoy (in French René de Savoie) and transferred the County to his cadet branch of Savoy dynasty. The most famous exponent of this branch of Lascaris was Beatrice of Tenda.

Heck if you are using the Laskaris as an example take a look at Teddy II himself. He was the maternal grandson of Theodore I. As the son and heir of John III Doukas Vatatzes he was officially Theodore Doukas Lakaris but emphasized the noble lineage of the Laskaris over the relatively undistinhuished Vatatzes

 

[unmerged(79540)]

Anyway, matrilinear marriages should be limited in their effects.
I mean, I can understand that few male mr. Nobody-courtiers would say no if the Bizantine emperor would ask them to marry one of his daughters in a matrilinear marriage. But what few people noticed is that male courtiers will come to your court this way. That means uber ministers all around. The marriage would be ok, but this is a ridicously easy way to get an enormous advantage in game. Female can't get important roles in your court (with the possible exception of Spymaster), but male demigods are another matter.

I tried this exploit after inheriting the throne of Constantinople, and it feels very very gamey. Seems like I'm ruling Asgard right now.

 

[bjorkrismacho]

I actually married my lowborn marshal to the kaisers princess and the game mecanics didnt let me marrythem (not that it was a condition from the kaiser, the tooltip said "A high title female will never marry anything but a matrilinear marriage." So of he went to the kaisers court

 

[Gathenhielm]

Swedish example, the swedish branch of the Brahe dynasty.

What later became the Danish branch descended from Axel and what later became the Swedish, descended from Thorkild's daughter, Johanna Torkildsdotter Brahe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahe

Edit: From a gameplay perspective it may be better to limit them to women in line for succesion.

 

[Drakken]

Let's not lose perspective, here. A matrilinear marriage simply means that the couple's children will keep the mother's dynasty name, period.

 

[rashtrakut]

Another example today will be the British Royal Family. breaking from precedent of Victoria, Elizabeth II's immediate heirs will remain Windsors not Mountbattens....some of the collateral lines have become Mountbatten-Windsor. Of course Philip assumed the name of his maternal uncle Lord Mountbatten to begin with and the name decree was issued to keep Mountbatten in check early in her reign.

 

[unmerged(209891)]

I think the matrilineal marriage mechanic is overpowered right now. Noble men shouldn't be so eager to accept them.

 

[Hidden Legend]

Hmmm, noble count turning down the chance to be rulers Husband because he doesnt want to be known as Mr Queen. Unlikely its a good deal for his descendants.

 

[Darkrenown]

I'm not an expert on matrilineal marriages. I didn't imagine they happened very often in medieval Europe. Did they?

It's pretty much just so a female heir isn't game over.

 

[Alerias]

It's pretty much just so a female heir isn't game over.

Wow. Sometimes the simplest concepts evade the mind totally. I too had pondered this option a little dubiously, but I hadn't thought about this scenario at all.

Although I found at least one more use: getting a female who wouldnt marry you otherwise that you want for an alliance to agree. I managed to get the Kaiser's daughter's hand as an obscure Rus ruler, and there was no way I was getting it without the matrilineal option. My guy already had a single son to serve as heir and what I really wanted was the Kaiser's doomstacks to fight off the barbarians at the gate. Worked flawlessly.

As a bonus, I converted her to Orthodoxy, so guess what religion the ruler of the HRE had 25 years down the line?

 

[Secret Master]

It's pretty much just so a female heir isn't game over.

Exactly. After all, in the real Middle Ages, there was no such thing as a game over if your children were not attached to the "correct" dynasty upon your death. Imagine how that conversation would sound.

"Alas, my poor grandson is emperor, a living saint, and is the most prestigious ruler in all Christendom. All of that, for nothing."

"But why, my lord?"

"Because in church records, he is recorded as his mother's dynasty. When I die, he will inherit my lands and my lineage will be extinct."

"But isn't he still your grandson, my lord?"

"Look, you stupid peasant, nothing is more important in aristocratic life than whether you registered at the Brotherhood of Cluny's Babies R Us under the mother or father's name. He's registered under his mother's name. That means he doesn't count as a member of my family anymore, even if his uncles did buy him that cute 'My First Iron Maiden' teething set."

"But my lord, your grandson is the pinnacle of medieval chivalry. They will write books about him. Surely that means something?"

"Bah. All under his mother's name. When I get to the End of Game Screen at St. Peter's Gate, all that will not be counted in my favor."

 

[unmerged(209891)]

I think in general, the AI accepts marriage offers too easily. The king of France should not be marrying off his daughter to the 50 year old youngest half-brother of my poor one province Irish duke.

 

[Hroppa]

I actually married my lowborn marshal to the kaisers princess and the game mecanics didnt let me marrythem (not that it was a condition from the kaiser, the tooltip said "A high title female will never marry anything but a matrilinear marriage." So of he went to the kaisers court

I'm fairly sure this is because the marshal was lowborn; lowborn males can ONLY marry matrilineally (as they have no dynasty)

 

[Pode]

I tried this exploit after inheriting the throne of Constantinople, and it feels very very gamey. Seems like I'm ruling Asgard right now.

Start as the vassal count of Navarra and plot aginst your liege/hated older brother. Now you're King of Navarra, with a noble mom, 3 legit sisters, and a recognized bastard sister to marry off and harvest a bumper crop of godlike courtiers, right? Except as king you take a -80 prestige hit for each of them to marry a courtier, and no one except a courtier will accept matrilineal. 400 prestige is a long time at +1/month. In general, maybe you get lucky with a landless heir that isn't landless due to incompetence, but for the most part you're paying a hefty prestige hit to get that demigod courtier. If you're an Emperor, that price gets easier to pay, but you need the quality courtiers to help you manage the vassal issues.

 

[Secret Master]

Godlike courtiers aren't all they are cracked up to be, anyway. I need LOYAL people to be advisors, not smart people. Sure, a 25 intrigue spymaster sounds great on paper, but if he's ambitious? Forget it. That's like signing your own death warrant. Even if we aren't talking spymasters, the other councilors are in a position to screw you if they start plotting, too. Hiring that brilliant steward just so he can rob the treasury while tag-teaming with the chancellor to steal my throne is more trouble that its worth, because I just end up replacing them with someone loyal anyway, right after I imprison them and torture them for a few weeks.

Besides, if you are the Byzantine Emperor, you should be able to find plenty of smart people among your vassals to fill important positions in your realm. All 35 of your vassals can't be that incompetent and disloyal, can they?

 

[Lord Strange]

Besides, if you are the Byzantine Emperor, you should be able to find plenty of smart people among your vassals to fill important positions in your realm. All 35 of your vassals can't be that incompetent and disloyal, can they?

You haven't read Rome AARisen then I take it?

 

[Secret Master]

You haven't read Rome AARisen then I take it?

I guess we are talking Blackadder/Baldric levels of disloyalty and incompetence?

 

[Subcomandante]

Godlike courtiers aren't all they are cracked up to be, anyway. I need LOYAL people to be advisors, not smart people. Sure, a 25 intrigue spymaster sounds great on paper, but if he's ambitious? Forget it. That's like signing your own death warrant. Even if we aren't talking spymasters, the other councilors are in a position to screw you if they start plotting, too.

Then you take the 23 intrigue guy who has +50 after being made cupbearer and spymaster. If he's ambitious you give him money. I have yet to find a reason not to get all the godlike courtiers I want apart from RP and micromanagement. But maybe that's good.

 

[siis]

Then you take the 23 intrigue guy who has +50 after being made cupbearer and spymaster. If he's ambitious you give him money. I have yet to find a reason not to get all the godlike courtiers I want apart from RP and micromanagement. But maybe that's good.

Traits have effect on ai behavior, not only on relation/opinion. Look at traits.txt there are a lot of traits with ai modifier. So your spymaster may have +50 opintion of you, that will not stop him from assassinating you.

 

[unmerged(79540)]

Traits have effect on ai behavior, not only on relation/opinion. Look at traits.txt there are a lot of traits with ai modifier. So your spymaster may have +50 opintion of you, that will not stop him from assassinating you.

Do you mean that high level courtiers with strong traits are more likely to turn against you?