Materialism and psionic research

[MrParadux]

I find it offensive that the most very devoted researchers in the galaxy can't get the awesomesauce techs, while the idiots worshiping moon-faeries can.

Hopefully materialists will get exclusive techs soon. I really want something like cybernetics

 

[The Founder]

Frankly, I think Spiritualists should get a science malus, and a larger one for Fanatic Spiritualists, because conducting R&D shouldn't be easy when every experiment has to be vetted by the priests for theological correctness.

What you are talking about is information Quanratine/Free Thought - both of wich happen to cost influence to maintain.

Actually with the changes in Asimov, small Spiritualists can now afford to run "Free Thought" 30/12. They got enough ethics divergences from Spiritualist to counter it.

Note that only Materialists have to have a Psionics Theory researcher. Being neutral gives you a low weight but no lockout.

About the balance/logic behind it
Yeah, logically it makes no sense for Materialits to not get it. The moment somebody realises "Psi Powers are real", they will just go and reserach it. I mean they can not have forgotten Galileo that quickly.

On the other hand, they get a 5%/15% bonus to all research tile production and governments that uniquely synergize with those. While they will be weaker for lack of psi tech, they have so many other techs to compensate with. They can go to high tech so much faster.

 

[Space Ranger]

If it is that common, why did you not just link one of the times they did?

- look up for a countless pre release interviews with Doomdark were he numerous times explained that spiritualist/materialist is not religious/scientific.

 

[Space Ranger]

So your participation in this thread can be summed up: "You are all 12 year olds. Look up why yourself."

- not all, only those who rage over spiritualist ethos and who consider it to be "religious".

And your only reference is early design phase footage when the game was under a different director and a lot of concepts were still fuid...

- it had nothing to do with design and all, Doomdark from the very beginning said numerous times what are spiritualist/materialist mean in their game, and that is not a religious/scientific. The situation is identical to that with collectivist that was presumed to be communist by alot of raging knowallots on the forum, up until Wiz said that ingame collectivism doesnt equate to communism or even real life collectivism.

That does not fit my standarts for meaningfull participation in a discussion. And those are not that high I think.

- aha, because im entitled to find all those videos were Doomdark confirms what i said for you, your Highness. I LoLd.

@Space Ranger Are you on probation for being a troll? Perhaps you should stop before you dig yourself deeper into a hole.

- im not allowed to discolose that kind of information by forum rules.

And calling people 12 year olds while not providing meaningful discussion? come on....

- and raging over spiritualist ethos having easier time to grab psionics in thread about materialism having hard time grabbing psionics is meaningfull? Not to mention false equation of spiritualist ethos to religious and consequent rage over religion in general.

What we're talking about here is simple game balance, there is literally nothing that explains why it's so hard for materialists to get psionics while spiritualists have it a cakewalk of cakewalks of cakewalks in comparison.

- Doomdark explained it more than once prior to release. And im not event mention that from gamebalance POV spiritualist is a much weaker ethos than materialist especially after Asimov patch to begin with.

 

[Silmarion]

@Space Ranger Are you on probation for being a troll? Perhaps you should stop before you dig yourself deeper into a hole.

And calling people 12 year olds while not providing meaningful discussion? come on....

What we're talking about here is simple game balance, there is literally nothing that explains why it's so hard for materialists to get psionics while spiritualists have it a cakewalk of cakewalks of cakewalks in comparison.

Opertunity cost. Materialists get very nice research bonuses, governments that stack more research bonuses, an ethos unique building that stacks even more research bonuses and the potential to completley circumvent the AI rebellion. Spiritualists, by contrast, get -ethos divergence(shared with collectivist) and psionics. If materialists have an easy, reliable way to get psionics, then there is no longer any real reason to pick Spiritualist. It goes from a choice with costs and benefits to both decisions, to one clearly superior choice. That's not good design.

 

[smjjames]

Opertunity cost. Materialists get very nice research bonuses, governments that stack more research bonuses, an ethos unique building that stacks even more research bonuses and the potential to completley circumvent the AI rebellion. Spiritualists, by contrast, get -ethos divergence(shared with collectivist) and psionics. If materialists have an easy, reliable way to get psionics, then there is no longer any real reason to pick Spiritualist. It goes from a choice with costs and benefits to both decisions, to one clearly superior choice. That's not good design.

Okay, you have a point, but it seems a little TOO hard, also, I didn't even know about the restriction until I either read the forum or the wiki.

 

[Silmarion]

Okay, you have a point, but it seems a little TOO hard, also, I didn't even know about the restriction until I either read the forum or the wiki.

Too hard? Not really. Once again, opertunity cost. If you pick materialist, you should plan on not ever getting psionics. That's the price you pay for a stronger base ethos with a unique niche. Now, I will admit the jump drive thing is bad, but that's more a problem with regular jump drives being limited to wormholes (arguably already the strongest FTL type) than with spiritualists getting a slightly better version.

 

[Lajinn]

Would be nice to see Materialists get an interesting tree of their own that is more weighted towards them. Something like cybernetics perhaps that can be closely linked to robotics, you'd figure that if anybody would be willing to replace their body parts with machine ones to extend their life/increase productivity/increase efficiency, it would be a materialist. A ship AI that they can plug themselves into, etc. Instead of trying to investigate psionics they would be investigating how to enhance and improve upon themselves.

 

[Shirasik]

if anybody would be willing to replace their body parts with machine ones to extend their life/increase productivity/increase efficiency

Should give interesting results if materialism combined with xeno- phobe/philia.

Instead of trying to investigate psionics they would be investigating how to enhance and improve upon themselves.

Sounds like genetics, for me.
hmmm...
Genetically modify entire specie to give psionic abilities to everyone from the birth.
Yep, I would like it.

 

[DarkDew]

Think this could easily be solved by adding a tec that add +5% weight to rare techs.

 

[Silmarion]

Would be nice to see Materialists get an interesting tree of their own that is more weighted towards them. Something like cybernetics perhaps that can be closely linked to robotics, you'd figure that if anybody would be willing to replace their body parts with machine ones to extend their life/increase productivity/increase efficiency, it would be a materialist. A ship AI that they can plug themselves into, etc. Instead of trying to investigate psionics they would be investigating how to enhance and improve upon themselves.

Materialists ready have Synths. Yes, others can research it, but face rather severe negatives, either in the form of a happiness penalty (actually meaningful post asimov) or an almost inevitable AI rebellion. I also wouldn't see cybernetics as being particularly materialist: the issue with Synths is the creation of a sentient, sapient mind. Materialists have zero problems with this, because all minds are createdand operated via the princples of the material universe. An organic brain is simply a meat computer, so far as they're concerned. Spiritualist object to synths because they come at it from the opposite direction: conciousness begets reality in their opinion. Hence why Synths are anethema to them. Cybernetics, being simple hardware shouldn't be objectionable to either side, any more than any other tool.

 

[The Founder]

Something like cybernetics perhaps that can be closely linked to robotics, you'd figure that if anybody would be willing to replace their body parts with machine ones to extend their life/increase productivity/increase efficiency, it would be a materialist. A ship AI that they can plug themselves into, etc. Instead of trying to investigate psionics they would be investigating how to enhance and improve upon themselves.

Should give interesting results if materialism combined with xeno- phobe/philia.

Sounds like genetics, for me.
hmmm...
Genetically modify entire specie to give psionic abilities to everyone from the birth.
Yep, I would like it.

Cybernetics and Genetics are in the end closelly related.
I even think the 2nd tier of Leader Ehanchements (Capacity Boosters) implies something about cybernetic implants/longelevity treatments.

Think this could easily be solved by adding a tec that add +5% weight to rare techs.

6 grillion times 0 is still just 0. The tech weight is not working with percentages - but multipliers. And per the rules of multipliaction any 0 in that multiplication chain just makes the whole thing 0.
The techfile and maybe scientist traitfile is where you would need to make the change. Giving Psionics a chance to drop when you got Zro and some other high level tech would make sense.


What I have been toying with as idea was "Psionic Potential/Psionically Inactive" Racial trait sets. Gives some minor bonus and enabeles getting Psi tech more reliably/not at all regardless of Ethos. In case you do get the tech, it might give you stronger Psi Armies/Morale Damage in general.


Regarding odd tech:
Sword of the Stars 2 had the danger of a AI rebellion as well. With the expansion "End of Flesh"* there was a whole "Post Rebellion" AI faction, so the organics went and developed Cybernetics. Wich for them meant "brains in yars":
http://wiki.swordofthestars.com/sots2/Cybernetics


*Slighly overnamed. The Loa were not any more likely to glass your planets then the Telephathic, pacifist Space Dolphins**

**Wich in retrospect is not as assuring as it should be.

 

[AaronArx]

Would be nice to see Materialists get an interesting tree of their own that is more weighted towards them. Something like cybernetics perhaps that can be closely linked to robotics, you'd figure that if anybody would be willing to replace their body parts with machine ones to extend their life/increase productivity/increase efficiency, it would be a materialist. A ship AI that they can plug themselves into, etc. Instead of trying to investigate psionics they would be investigating how to enhance and improve upon themselves.

I love this idea

It would be cool if they added also a late game technology that would be a mix between psionic and what you just described. Like for example cybernetic devices capable of amplifying telepatic powers would give huge bonuses to the army and to civilians in general.

 

[The Founder]

I love this idea

It would be cool if they added also a late game technology that would be a mix between psionic and what you just described. Like for example cybernetic devices capable of amplifying telepatic powers would give huge bonuses to the army and to civilians in general.

Or control them, like what the Protoss did with teh Khalaa and thier natural telepathic ability....

 

[Had a dad]

spam deleted

 

[DarkDew]

6 grillion times 0 is still just 0. The tech weight is not working with percentages - but multipliers. And per the rules of multipliaction any 0 in that multiplication chain just makes the whole thing 0.
The techfile and maybe scientist traitfile is where you would need to make the change. Giving Psionics a chance to drop when you got Zro and some other high level tech would make sense.

Thats why i said add 5% as in add enuff weight to make it 5% more of a chance to get for the ave rare card. 0+5 times a grillion is point o five grillion. Ur just applying the 5% in the wrong part of the equasion. This tech would get that +5% weight baced on the average weight of all rare techs.

 

[solidprice]

Thats why i said add 5% as in add enuff weight to make it 5% more of a chance to get for the ave rare card. 0+5 times a grillion is point o five grillion. Ur just applying the 5% in the wrong part of the equasion. This tech would get that +5% weight baced on the average weight of all rare techs.

Why not both?
It's a space game, so some captian obvious ftl techs may have been skipped or not thought about like those too easy answers on TV game shows.

So on a bigger scale it should happen too.

My 2 cents?
I'll suggesta 1% weight to rare tech that arnt your specific ethos after someone else got to it after a while.
Then keep adding 1% every 10 years.
Some pleb is bound to spill the beans.
Or someone will backyard tweak until they get it after seeing it once.

 

[ShadowDragon868]

All this "opportunity cost" bullshit is just that - bullshit.
Spiritualists and Fanatic Spiritualists already have their bonuses - happy fun times, -ethics divergence. They shouldn't have "hidden" bonuses in that they have an easier time than most getting the best military technologies to boot, and the guys whose whole schtick is "we solve our problems through the application of THE BEST TECHNOLOGY!" shouldn't be fucking frozen out of the best technologies unless the player cheats*, RNJesus gives them a blowjob, or they set up a ridiculous system of industrially leveling scientists to hope for the vanishingly small chance of getting the necessary trait upon level-up.

*Seriously, when the player gets frustrated and resorts to cheating because they feel the game cheated them out of their due, it opens the floodgates to more. I started cheating simply to add psionics expertise to my researchers because I was Materialistic and I did not like the idea of being locked out of The Best FTL System. Now I just rock out with all leaders having all imaginable positive traits and wipe away any inconvenient negative ones.

 

[smjjames]

@ShadowDragon868 On the whole cheating thing, you can easily set limits to where you don't want to go or want to do. There are some things I COULD do with cheating which I'm not going to do (unless I'm screwing around or something). But each to their own. Also chill a little bit dude, yes it's frustrating, but we don't need to fly off the handle.

But yeah, the point both me and ShadowDragon are making is that it's ridiculously hard to get psi as a materialist. Hell, look at my suggestion post, I'm not saying make it REAL easy, just giving more potential chances for it to happen. If the fact that it's a challenge is WAD, fine, but at least make it reasonably possible for the trait to be gained.

I'll link the suggestion thread I made: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...d-reduce-the-difficulty-of-getting-it.956003/

Also, maybe with @AaronArx 's permission, I can post over here what I posted there. I made some pretty reasonable suggestions.

 

[ShadowDragon868]

Or, and here's a thought...

Don't make Psi the gateway to The Best Techs. Sure, make it unique, but make it Not The Best. Give everyone access to an FTL method as OP as Psi Jump Drives, give everyone a combat computer as OP as precog interfaces.