Massive oversight in the tank designer: there is no advanced medium cannon.

[King Of Heroes]

The birth of the Conqueror after it was briefly perceived that maybe a Heavier tank would still be nice to have available doesn't in any way discredit the Centurion as the first tank to have been designed as a "Do-it-all" tank.

If the Conqueror were to discredit the Centurion then the very T-64 would be discredited by the T-72.

 

[Joshua Happytree]

the very T-64 would be discredited by the T-72

Actually T-64 was meant to be a "quality" part of "cheap"-"expensive" mix. Two- and then three-tank mix of Soviet Union is merely military industrial complex politics. In terms of firepower, protection etc. - they are equal.

 

[King Of Heroes]

Not so Main anymore if its being employed in a mix isn't it?

The Centurion was designed to be effectively a MBT and it held its role for a while until the Conqueror came in, the T-64 was designed as a MBT and then effectively lost its role to the T-72.

This whole talk is semantics and not even the original subject of the thread anyway.

 

[Joshua Happytree]

the T-64 was designed as a MBT and then effectively lost its role to the T-72.

You are probably looking just at designation numbers. T-64 didn't loose anything to T-72 in Soviet times. Quite the opposite, T-72 was considered inferior to T-64 (and T-80) so T-72 was exportable whereas T-64 (and T-80) - not. After the dissolution of Soviet Union Russia got the design and production base for T-72 so it naturally continued to develop T-72 further. And it had money for that while Ukraine didn't. So now - yes, T-90 is much more advanced than T-64/T-84 platform but it does not mean it was the same in Soviet times.

 

[Joshua Happytree]

This whole talk is semantics and not even the original subject of the thread anyway.

Agree - let's leave it there. Neither Centurion nor T-64 will change for better or for worse whether they are pinned with "first MBT" label or not.

 

[King Of Heroes]

I'm aware of all that, the point is that what came in the future doesn't change that another was made in the past no matter how the subject in question was used.

Anyway yeah, last post about it from me.

 

[Dman1791]

I think a more significant problems is that either medium tanks are too expensive, or heavies and superheavies are too cheap. Due to the fewer tanks required, a heavy tank battalion is only slightly more expensive than a medium tank battalion, while a superheavy battalion is actually cheaper than a medium one. Because of this, medium tanks aren't very useful, regardless of stats. One particularly egregious example is later SPGs, where a medium SPG battalion with heavy howitzers is actually both weaker and more expensive than the heavy version, though it doesn't require as much supply.

Division-level issues aside, I don't really think there's a place for an advanced medium gun. The second medium gun is a very effective weapon, since it provides balanced SA/HA without breaking the bank. Rather than the lack of an advanced medium gun, I find the early guns to be completely out of whack. The most egregious example is the close-support gun vs the first medium howitzer. The close-support gun has equivalent SA, is cheaper to produce, and does not require any resources, while the howitzer's only improvements are to HA and piercing IIRC, with neither of those stats even being meaningful for it.

 

[blahmaster6k]

I think a more significant problems is that either medium tanks are too expensive, or heavies and superheavies are too cheap. Due to the fewer tanks required, a heavy tank battalion is only slightly more expensive than a medium tank battalion, while a superheavy battalion is actually cheaper than a medium one. Because of this, medium tanks aren't very useful, regardless of stats. One particularly egregious example is later SPGs, where a medium SPG battalion with heavy howitzers is actually both weaker and more expensive than the heavy version, though it doesn't require as much supply.

Division-level issues aside, I don't really think there's a place for an advanced medium gun. The second medium gun is a very effective weapon, since it provides balanced SA/HA without breaking the bank. Rather than the lack of an advanced medium gun, I find the early guns to be completely out of whack. The most egregious example is the close-support gun vs the first medium howitzer. The close-support gun has equivalent SA, is cheaper to produce, and does not require any resources, while the howitzer's only improvements are to HA and piercing IIRC, with neither of those stats even being meaningful for it.

Time for Maus meta. I don't think paradox tested the balance of the tank designer very well at all, the more I mess with it the more problems I find.