Mass Assault Doctrine Is it Worth it?

[Chukada]

So I watched all the world war wednesdays.

Mass Assault doctrine, not the deep batte doctrine, but the human wave path. Is it worth it?

The only two good techs look like the first one +2% reinforcement rate and one near the end -0.4 width for infantry.

Grand Battle Plan looks way better if you have a huge infantry army.

max entrenchment +10%
entrenchment speed +25%

planned defense +10 % defense

another tech gives infantry attack bonuses I believe, and supply consumption reduction.

Human wave looks a bit empty with the early techs not really being that great.

You get an out of supply bonus reduction. But if you are out of supply, odds are you lost.

 

[LordOfWar16]

Grand Battleplan is more suited for, well, long term static plans. If you have a huge army you want to make use of it, so you want as much troops in each battle as possible. - 0.4 width might not sound that much, but that could be one or two smaller divisions. Reinforcement Rate is also a huge factor in battle, which can turn it around.

Overall all doctrine trees and paths have their advantages and disadvantages of course and are suited for different playstyles.

 

[Radu]

Speaking of which.

Has the abandoning of a particular Doctrine tree been shown/discussed? Say I'm Germany and I want to switch my Naval Doctrine to the Carrier-centric one.

 

[Orlunu]

Mass Assault will always win out over GBP if the forces fighting are big enough. The MA will lose far more men, but will have more men on the front at a time and reinforce faster. They take more casualties but win by emptying GBP's front line before their own empties. It would be advisable as, say, China or some USSR builds where you just have bodies to throw at the enemy and not much else.

Speaking of which.

Has the abandoning of a particular Doctrine tree been shown/discussed? Say I'm Germany and I want to switch my Naval Doctrine to the Carrier-centric one.

It's possible, you just have to start researching up the other tree. Only one tree will be active at a time, however, so you won't get any advantage from all the stuff you have researched in another one.

 

[farrenj]

Speaking of which.

Has the abandoning of a particular Doctrine tree been shown/discussed? Say I'm Germany and I want to switch my Naval Doctrine to the Carrier-centric one.

You can change, it just means that you lose whatever progress you started with in the original one. They've mentioned it in a few videos.

 

[Denkt]

Human wave doctrine also give you access to more manpower which is a huge deal.

You get an out of supply bonus reduction. But if you are out of supply, odds are you lost.

This allow more risky play with less risk and big risks can win you the war.

-0.4 combat width for infantry is a big thing, infantry take 2 width normaly, basically it increase infantry firepower/width by 25% which is pretty much 25% better infantry an extreamly strong improvement and unlike GBP this bonus do not require any time investment, it is always on as long as you have large infantry divisions which are not hard to have.

 

[Orlunu]

Human wave doctrine also give you access to more manpower which is a huge deal.

Seems more like that just offsets the fact that the tree will have you taking higher losses than any other tree, rather than being an active reason to claim the tree is good.

 

[Denkt]

Seems more like that just offsets the fact that the tree will have you taking higher losses than any other tree, rather than being an active reason to claim the tree is good.

Not necessarily, encirclment is the real killer in HOI4 and masses of infantry divisions can push the enemy out of the edge.

 

[Chukada]

I feel like Grand Battle Plan is the obvious choice for any defensive country.

Seems like the best choice for China with its trench warfare +10% max entrenchment + 25% entrenchment speed, organized defense +10% defense, and the other techs I forget what they are called. +infantry organization -supply consumption, grand battle +50% planning bonus.

The only two techs that are worth it compared to other trees are the first and almost last tech of mass assault human wave.

+2 reinforcement rate, -0.4 combat width for infantry.

If you are in the mass assault human wave tree, its unlikely you are hurting for manpower.. you would probably not be taking that tree then. So it makes the "-10% attrition, +0.3 infantry regain" kind of silly. Plus this tree only gives +5% entrenchment and is the second tech, first tech of grand battle plan gives +10% and lets you entrench faster.

Also out of supply bonus is silly. So my units will last 2 more days when they are out of supply.. before being wiped out, great. I question a tech tree that rewards getting surrounded and cut off.

 

[Katarian]

Is the Human Wave side of the tree actually supposed to be a proper doctrine path? I though tit was meant to be an emergency path that you only use until you can afford to swap to something better that is why there are less techs.

 

[Secret Master]

Not necessarily, encirclment is the real killer in HOI4 and masses of infantry divisions can push the enemy out of the edge.

I was going to say something like this.

You use your armored divisions as the tip of the spear to penetrate lines, but with masses of infantry divisions, you can create bigger pockets and wear them down faster without the threat of losing your own lines.

 

[Denkt]

If somebody want to know how much manpower 5% is, you get 10% for having the extensive conscription law.

 

[Orlunu]

Well, what are all the ones we know? I mean, reinforcement rate, combat width, org, recovery rate, manpower, and so on... These all seem to be fairly effective stopgap measures for a country in dire straights. Sure, it's not sustainable, but it's not supposed to be. Switch to Deep Battle once you're stable, but Mass Mobilisation gives you combat buffs nearly commensurate with the other lines without needing things like well equipped divisions, armour and motorisation, or a long time to set up all your plans in advance and enough forces to saturate your defensive lines. Perfect for the Nationalist Chinas of the world.

 

[Chukada]

Grand Battle Plan (Japanese Path) gives you the best techs for infantry, which means you don't need these stop gap measures. If you are getting entrenchment bonus +10%, entrenchment speed +25%, defense +10%, supply consumption - 10%, infantry org +10%, night-time battle +50%, 50% planning bonus, +0.1 recon, well - if you are in dire straits you would be only using infantry.

I think mass mobilization needs a buff. Othewise no reason to take it except flavor. I think its silly thee is a tree basically called "stop-gap measure". Especially when the cost is the same if you took a better tech tree.

Mass Mobilization would make sense if it required less research days.

 

[Denkt]

Grand battle plan give no extra manpower at all and do not have a combat width reduction either.

 

[Orlunu]

If you are getting entrenchment bonus +10%, entrenchment speed +25%, defense +10%, supply consumption - 10%, infantry org +10%, night-time battle +50%, 50% planning bonus, +0.1 recon

If you can't hold your whole line at least reasonably well, the entrenchment and planning are nullified.

So, in stopgap mode, it's:
GBP: +10% defence, -10% supply consumption, +50% night battle, +0.1 recon, +10% inf org
MM: +2% reinforcement, -0.4 inf combat width +0.3 inf recovery rate, +5% pop recruitable, 10 inf org (and org on others you probably won't have).

MM takes the org advantage, much higher unit count, higher proportion of units in combat, GBP gets slightly better defence and maintains resources more efficiently, gets night advantage but very little will happen at night anyway. GBP is slightly better in a given individual defence, MM on attack, and MM gets a load many loads more map control and reserve units.

I agree, it looks like it could do with a bit of a buff, maybe reducing the minimum equipment requirement could be a fluffy and fun thing, but it does look like the stronger option for a country like it's planned for.

 

[Lifthrasil]

Also out of supply bonus is silly. So my units will last 2 more days when they are out of supply.. before being wiped out, great. I question a tech tree that rewards getting surrounded and cut off.

As I see it, that's not a reward but it merely mitigates the risk and damages. 2 more days (why 2?), means that you have 2 more days to relief the pocket with a massed attack fromt outside. You can also stall the enemy longer with single divisions while building up a second line of defence.

 

[Kazansky22]

Also out of supply bonus is silly. So my units will last 2 more days when they are out of supply.. before being wiped out, great. I question a tech tree that rewards getting surrounded and cut off.

I agree, encircled divisions and entire armies fought for sometime without much in the ways of supply. I was thinking maybe since they no longer have the air supply mission in Hoi4, perhaps if you have air superiority you get some kind of bonus to supplying encircled divisions, and if the air is contested you get a very small bonus to supplying encircled units. And obviously if the enemy owns the air then you shouldn't receive any supply by air.

 

[Viktor_Vertex]

You get an out of supply bonus reduction. But if you are out of supply, odds are you lost.

I'd reckon that it'd be quite useful during naval invasions, say, liberating Nordic countries or Spain or Italy as allies.

gets night advantage but very little will happen at night anyway.

Is it true though ? Do battles really stop at night ingame ?
Because if they don't you get +50% bonus about from around third to about half of the time, which is potentially huge. It would practically increase holding time by around 30%(just guessing though), which would be useful for preventing breakthroughs

 

[Sernista]

The other thing is of course that you have better concentration of force ability even from that very first pick. More reinforcements means less guys sitting on the bench, so if the fighting is hard enough both sides' fronts are getting shredded, your guys will get back in there faster than the enemy can, and that increases your odds of clearing the front via cascading advantage (power-plays, to continue the flimsy sports metaphor). And then the enemy is retreating, because all those guys who were stuck in the reserves have to retreat just like anyone else. So over-stacking is less arduous for you because of the manpower and supply advantages, and even when the enemy commits an over-stack to try and match you, you're still better at it than they are. That means broken lines at your points of concentration, which is at least half the battle - and as mentioned above, preventing breakouts is that much easier when you have enough solid troops to fill all the gaps, and better resilience against supply lapses.

I wouldn't use it as Britain, but it looks like a very solid play overall.