Martin Boreman + Rudolph Hess Is Best

Martin Boreman + Rudolph Hess Is Best

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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

SonofWinter

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I have not tested this yet by why not get both of them?

Hear me out... each one gives you 0.30 Political Power per day. 15% of 2 or 0.30.

Rudolph Hess doesn't disappear until May 1941, or he shouldn't until then. That means 1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940 and 1/3rd of 1941 of 0.30 PP per day.

Now your first guy is going to be Schacht and then Marin Boreman, so you can only count on Hess to produce half of 1936.

But 180 days + 365 days + 365 days + 365 days + 365 days + 120 days = 1,760 days gaining 0.3 PP per day, is about 528 PP return on investment of 150 PP.
 
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el nora

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  1. Germany doesnt even need Bormann to meet their pp needs. Hess is a waste.
  2. You only have 3 advisor slots. You need either Schacht or Funk, Canaries, and you also probably want Goebbels. Fitting Bormann in is hard enough, where do you slot in Hess?
  3. Hess disappears before* you dow Soviets. It fires when France falls. Not in 41. Maybe in 40. But more probably in 39.
  4. Your first picks are going to be Free Trade, attache/Goebbels, War Eco, and Schacht. Bormann becomes less and less useful the longer he is put off. Hess all the more so.
  5. Seriously what exactly is it that you need to be doing with all that pp? You will have tank designer, air designer, theorist, spymaster, etc all on time even without getting Bormann.
 
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Good point! One thing you're missing though is that Goebbels is needed for the 10% War Support boost to get War Economy early so it's a little hard to grab both if you also want to have early War Economy plus an industrial boost.

Granted I don't play multiplayer so I don't know what the exact meta build would be.
 
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SonofWinter

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Good point! One thing you're missing though is that Goebbels is needed for the 10% War Support boost to get War Economy early so it's a little hard to grab both if you also want to have early War Economy plus an industrial boost.

Granted I don't play multiplayer so I don't know what the exact meta build would be.
War support?

Rhineland +10% and an attache +10% gets you to 50%+ and is much cheaper than Goebbels 100 for attache vs 150 for Goebbels.

Also, not sure if you were aware that the War Economy is a freebie with the 70 day event, so you don't have to pay 150 points for it.

So you could do Goebbels 150 + War Economy 150 and spend 300 PP, or just do Rhineland and War Economy(?) decisions and spend 100 PP on Attache and get the same result. 300 v 100.
 
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SonofWinter

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  1. Germany doesnt even need Bormann to meet their pp needs. Hess is a waste.
  2. You only have 3 advisor slots. You need either Schacht or Funk, Canaries, and you also probably want Goebbels. Fitting Bormann in is hard enough, where do you slot in Hess?
  3. Hess disappears before* you dow Soviets. It fires when France falls. Not in 41. Maybe in 40. But more probably in 39.
  4. Your first picks are going to be Free Trade, attache/Goebbels, War Eco, and Schacht. Bormann becomes less and less useful the longer he is put off. Hess all the more so.
  5. Seriously what exactly is it that you need to be doing with all that pp? You will have tank designer, air designer, theorist, spymaster, etc all on time even without getting Bormann.
Schaht is always first. And Goebbels is unnecessary in my opinion. Please see response above about how Goebbels is a waste of 150 PP in my opinion.

Hess didn't fly until May of 1941, so if his flight is tied to the Fall of France then that's poor history and incorrect event design by the staff.

As for why you might want the PP. Designers Tank Aircraft and Small Arms

Being able to do all the small arms research then changing to artillery research, then back again. That's a lot of free research. Aircraft, you can get fancy planes and fast research with each designer, if you can afford the cost of changing designers, with lots of PP.
 
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DukofDeth

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True, but taking the other side of that branch - Integrated Economy - lets you puppet Hungary and Romania for eventual annexation, which means all the Romanian oil will be yours. Even puppets will favor others if they like them more.

Besides, considering the manner in which Borman operated there should have been an restriction put in - only him or Hess, not both.
 
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el nora

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Schaht is always first. And Goebbels is unnecessary in my opinion. Please see response above about how Goebbels is a waste of 150 PP in my opinion.
War economy by focus comes far too late. You should absolutely pay the pp for it. Goebbels is 6% more stability in addition to the war support. The attache is only cheaper in its initial cost, but if you include the event spam, it can cost more pp. And while in a competitive game the war should be dragged out as long as possible, so losing the attache early isnt a real concern, if you rush the war you lose the war support and get the demobilization mission. And thats without even considering that Rhineland can be delayed and there are valid reasons to do so in multiplayer.

Schacht is never first. If youre taking 4 Year Plan as your first focus, you are spending your research bonuses amazingly inefficiently. They should be reserved to go ahead of time on industrial techs. 4 Year Plan as 4th focus is typically considered standard.
 
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SonofWinter

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True, but taking the other side of that branch - Integrated Economy - lets you puppet Hungary and Romania for eventual annexation, which means all the Romanian oil will be yours. Even puppets will favor others if they like them more.

Besides, considering the manner in which Borman operated there should have been an restriction put in - only him or Hess, not both.
6 mil vs 8 mil? Not sure the difference is significant enough. As for puppet resources, I produce my own oil and rubber, when I'm not buying it from SIam and the Soviets.
 

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  1. Germany doesnt even need Bormann to meet their pp needs. Hess is a waste.
  2. You only have 3 advisor slots. You need either Schacht or Funk, Canaries, and you also probably want Goebbels. Fitting Bormann in is hard enough, where do you slot in Hess?
  3. Hess disappears before* you dow Soviets. It fires when France falls. Not in 41. Maybe in 40. But more probably in 39.
  4. Your first picks are going to be Free Trade, attache/Goebbels, War Eco, and Schacht. Bormann becomes less and less useful the longer he is put off. Hess all the more so.
  5. Seriously what exactly is it that you need to be doing with all that pp? You will have tank designer, air designer, theorist, spymaster, etc all on time even without getting Bormann.
You do not know how wrong you are. Bormann Hess are incontrovertibly the best first two moves you can make, and it is not even close. Do not take my word for it though. DaleDVM wrote this excellent post some time ago, with raw hard numbers.


By choosing Free Trade first, it will net you 11% of one factory, some equipment, and 22 extra days of research on one technology.

1) Hess March 11th 1936
2) Bormann April 25th

For those that question placing either Hess or Bormann, please note these facts. After they are both placed, the next minister is placed in 80 days vs 117 without the silent workhorses. This bonus in saved days only gets better and better as the MEFO bill cost goes up. By early 1938 just before historical Anschluss the difference is 105 days to place a minister vs 180. If you place these two as your first choices after the Rhineland focus they will pay for themselves by Aug 16th 1937. After that date the two generate an extra 447 PP by Sept 1 1939. That is 3 extra ministers before the historical date of the war vs a player who doesn't use them! If you use only one you only get half of the benefits. Place them both and do it early. There are literally no other ministers that are vital in the beginning of 1936.
...

 
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SonofWinter

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You do not know how wrong you are. Bormann Hess are incontrovertibly the best first two moves you can make, and it is not even close. Do not take my word for it though. DaleDVM wrote this excellent post some time ago, with raw hard numbers.
Personally, I love Hjalmar Schacht first then Boreman and Hess, since Hjalmar gives such a price cut on creating all those CIV factories, and only costs 75 fp. But I suppose having them first and him 3 is also an option.
 
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Gefallener_Held

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Personally, I love Hjalmar Schacht first then Boreman and Hess, since Hjalmar gives such a price cut on creating all those CIV factories, and only costs 75 fp. But I suppose having them first and him 3 is also an option.
Read Dale's excellent post. I think it is arguable what is best 3rd but Bormann/Hess as one and two is incontrovertible when you look at the numbers. You get three extra ministers before the start of the war.
 

SonofWinter

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Read Dale's excellent post. I think it is arguable what is best 3rd but Bormann/Hess as one and two is incontrovertible when you look at the numbers. You get three extra ministers before the start of the war.
Any advice on MEFO Bills? Are they worth it?
 

el nora

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You do not know how wrong you are. Bormann Hess are incontrovertibly the best first two moves you can make, and it is not even close. Do not take my word for it though.
This is actually amusing. I will not take your word for it because its flat out wrong.

By delaying free trade, you delay 4 year plan which is worth much more than the pp you would otherwise have gotten from Bormann. But I can see how the mistake was made because they completely ignore tech rushing and shoot themselves in the foot. In the linked post, as near as I can tell, the proposed focus order is Rhineland into 4 Year Plan second focus which is an inexcusable blow to eco. By failing to use the research buffs to rush more advanced industry tech, their Germany build is far behind in actual equipment produced come Sept 39.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the insanity of the proposal of taking tank treaty in mid 37 (eighth focus it appears). That is just plain asinine. Germanys tank rush is better than the Soviets' only because they start out ahead in tech and the Soviets much play catch up. By enabling the Soviets to already have light 2 or heavy 1 completed by the time the tank treaty is completed you enable your own downfall. By taking tank treaty early (third focus) you force the Soviet players hand into wasting their early research slots on tanks instead of industry, so they will be forced to give up one of their more limited tech slots inefficiently early game just to not have lost the opportunity to use it efficiently later.

The point is that the pp is useless. So what if it allows you to pick up 3 more high command when war kicks off if those high command were not useful in the first place? But what it does do is delay the optimal 4 year plan timing as well as prevent you from taking Canaries, who is ever so much more useful than any three high command. PP is not an end in and of itself in this game, but only a means to it. Having more pp is not helpful if you are doing nothing worthwhile with it.

Getting Free Trade, Schacht, and War Eco early is worth more than having said pp because those actively translate to more eco faster, whereas the pp translates to less eco in exchange for 3 high command which you didnt even need until Barbarossa anyway. Getting Canaries at all directly results in all 1943 industry completed before Barbarossa as well as collaborations in both Poland and France before 39 and more besides when Barb kicks off. There is absolutely no comparison between the pick orders.
 
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Gefallener_Held

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By delaying free trade, you delay 4 year plan which is worth much more than the pp you would otherwise have gotten from


Huh? The four year plan is a national focus selection that has no bearing on how you use political power. If you want to suggest choosing that tree over Rhineland, well an argument can be made but this ignores the fact that the sooner you get Hess and Bormann as as duo, the less bonus you get in political power.

completely ignore tech rushing
Not generally a good idea, because the research penalties are so high. Really do not see what that has to do with what first political power moves are.
The point is that the pp is useless. So what if it allows you to pick up 3 more high command when war kicks off if those high command were not useful in the first place?
Political power is useless huh? How do you thibnk you get free trade (export focus is better given the number of materials that get exported) Hire Schact, or move to war economy.

War economy is nice, but that 150 political power is better spent on Schact (later Funk [the mic build bonus), export focus/free trade. Using poltical power to get Goebbels provides a short term gain. Rememer you can typically get 50 percent war support from Spanish Civil War and aces.

Finally, you do not use that three extra ministers to get war ministers, but things mentioned above, not to mention Guderian or Krupp or MAN to help speed up research, which is vital.
 
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Any advice on MEFO Bills? Are they worth it?
I think you have to take them because they are in effect when you start. The penalty of letting them expire is crippling. I do not believe you can choose not to take them. This mitigates in favor of mic builds but I do not think it is enough. Building civilian factories pays for itself by itself by 40 IIRC.
 
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Huh? The four year plan is a national focus selection that has no bearing on how you use political power. If you want to suggest choosing that tree over Rhineland, well an argument can be made but this ignores the fact that the sooner you get Hess and Bormann as as duo, the less bonus you get in political power.

Not generally a good idea, because the research penalties are so high. Really do not see what that has to do with what first political power moves are.
Wrong. 4yp timing is entirely dependent on how you use your pp. Unless you either juggle all your early industry techs, or take free trade or krupp with your first 150 pp, you will not complete 1936 industry in time to begin 1937 industry before 4yp completes. In that case you would have to take 4yp as your 5th focus instead of 4th. You dont take 4yp over rhineland, you pick it after rhineland (unless youre doing very late rhineland games), because there arent many good focuses to pick before it. In competitive games it is more likely than not to see a Germany focus order be Rhineland into Tank Treaty into the industry tree.

Taking 4YP second focus is, as I stated above, actively shooting yourself in the foot. Your industry will be far behind a properly industry rushing Germany. Which, I didnt think was necessary to say because it is blindingly obvious, but it seems that I must, is a good idea. Industry is the one tech folder that no matter your country and strat, you always rush approximately 1 year ahead of time and more if you have research bonuses. Your inability to see the scale of the war and how industry plays in it is not anyone else's problem.

Political power is useless huh? How do you thibnk you get free trade (export focus is better given the number of materials that get exported) Hire Schact, or move to war economy.

War economy is nice, but that 150 political power is better spent on Schact (later Funk [the mic build bonus), export focus/free trade. Using poltical power to get Goebbels provides a short term gain. Rememer you can typically get 50 percent war support from Spanish Civil War and aces.

Finally, you do not use that three extra ministers to get war ministers, but things mentioned above, not to mention Guderian or Krupp or MAN to help speed up research, which is vital.
My contention was nowhere stated that any and all political power is useless. Rather the opposite. That political power is a means to an end. Having more of it is of less use than whatever else you could be doing if you are not spending it efficiently. Spending pp now to gain more pp later is enormously wasteful. PP now is worth more than pp later. And no, you are not using the later pp to do more important things than you were doing with the pp now. Ramping up your eco is the most important thing you could be doing with your opening moves, not delaying your eco in order to save up for taking high command before you need them.

War eco now is worth more than war eco in a year. It is 150 pp worth it unless in a year you were going to have gotten total mob anyway. Which enables you to delay GWE or outright ignore it in favor of IWE which provides a better payout anyway. Goebbels is the long term play, not the attache. Because they attache will invariably cost you more than 100 pp if you keep it a while, and when it goes away you lose the 10 ws. Goebbels also provides you with 6 stab over the long term. The xp gain from the attache is nice, but completely unnecessary. If you play out the civil war well, you will have all your templates ready, xp boosted tech going, and 500xp banked with any more incoming being wasted. Ace spam is usually banned in mp, but sure in sp you need neither attache nor early Goebbels to get War Eco, even if you do delay Rhineland till the second Sino-Japanese War, as is done sometimes in mp to screw the Allies. That just makes early war eco worth more, not less.

And no, export focus is not better. The research, construction, and production bonuses from Free Trade are vital in mp. Only in sp, where the ai is braindead and doesnt trade favorably within its faction is Free Trade not viable.

You are using the extra pp to get high command, not the things above because if you hadnt wasted time on getting the pp, you already have had the above earlier. You are actively delaying your early game build up which will seriously hamper you in the long term. And by not leaving room for Canaries, you are even worse off. Hes the most important of all the possible ministers you could have hired. Tech theft and collab governments are so much more brokenly op than anything else you could buy with your extra pp.
 
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My contention was nowhere stated that any and all political power is useless. Rather the opposite.
The point is that the pp is useless.
I really see no point in discussing anything with anyone who directly contradicts himself in such spectacular fashion.
 
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By delaying free trade, you delay 4 year plan which is worth much more than the pp you would otherwise have gotten from Bormann. But I can see how the mistake was made because they completely ignore tech rushing and shoot themselves in the foot. In the linked post, as near as I can tell, the proposed focus order is Rhineland into 4 Year Plan second focus which is an inexcusable blow to eco.
I did Boreman, Hess and Schacht and Free Trade, in that order.

Completed all the Industrial techs in 1936, and I'm running out of 1937 techs, mid 1937. I'm sorry but the amount of Political Power those two shitheads generate for you, allows you to pick up so many advisors and tech companies, that you are full on choking on tech research.

So may I recommend you actually run a 1 year trial doing 4 Year focus then Rhineland. And hire Boreman, Hess, the Schacht and the Free Trade and let us know, how far behind you really fall, in comparison to all the advisors and techs you get to buy with all that extra PP.

Please test it, they make the game disgustingly easy.
 
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I really see no point in discussing anything with anyone who directly contradicts himself in such spectacular fashion.
As previously mentioned, PP is a means to an end. Paying PP now to generate more PP later is absolutely counter productive. Even if hiring hess makes your next PP buy 20 days or so earlier, you have already delayed that purchase by the 150 PP you spent on getting hess first. Just move to free trade or get your war economy or your captain of industry and be done with it.

As mentioned, it takes 500 days, over 1.3 years to recoup what you spent on these advisors. So by hiring these people first, you are basically getting *nothing* for 2 years, when you could be getting something.

There are only so many buys that you need to do before the war starts. There is little to no benefit to having high command or chief or army earlier than just before the war.
 
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