Martian Copyrights: Unlimited free research, Bug or Feature?

[Shivanshu]

Martian copyrights : 4.550 (after getting 35% of due to alien artifacts) research and 2b$, which when outsourced will give you 10.000 research for 2b$, a bit more than double the research. So if you keep doing this cycle you're more than halving your research times for no costs, FOREVER. And the halving process' time will get reduced every time you do it too! Or, you can stick a few techs here and there, which means your research rates will still be growing, just not so rapidly, and you'll be researching the useful techs a a side effect.
Was this intended or is it just a bug, it gives rise to exponential increase in research rate(literally) since you can outsource forever. Maybe it was an intended feature to complete later researches which are expensive or maybe it is an bug, i don't know.
Dev's is it a bug or feature?

 

[XanTraX]

Yeah i saw it too right a few moments ago at sky storms let's play:

 

[Lionel d'Lion]

I'm hoping that this is something that will be fixed in a patch because as Skye Storme is demonstrating in his playthough it's just ridiculously overpowered as it stands.

Fixing it could be as easy as only allowing Martian Patents/Copyrights to be researched once, only allowing one outsourcing deal to be active at the same time or reducing (halving?) the funding bonus that patents/copyrights give you.

 

[Beric]

Honestly I think that the only exploit is just how crazy cheap it is to outsource research. Outsourcing research is incredibly powerful because it takes no support structures, colonists in labs, etc. You just trade straight cash for research. It needs to not be worthwhile most of the time. Then it would just come down to Martian Copyrights being an opportunity cost of getting money versus researching another tech.

 

[CHOAM]

I was actually really surprised to find out that these two techs, Patents and Copyrights, have a fixed research cost no matter how many times you go for them. The solution is pretty simple too - in Stellaris, a whole lot of the end-game techs are repeatable (increasing the number of systems a player can directly control, as an example), but every time you do, the cost goes up for the next time.

 

[Boyan_Haemimont]

Yup that's a bug or rather a balance issue that slipped by me. I'm going to have a look at Alien Imprints and repeatable tech in general. Unfortunately I can't give you an ETA when the fixes will be pushed as they may require some more rigorous testing.

P.S. This issue is not present in all playthroughs as you have to be lucky enough to get the Alien Imprints breakthrough and the Martian Copyrights tech has to be sorted early with a low cost. So there's a big chance that it won't affect your first games.

 

[Turin the Mad]

Suggest figuring out the odds of that combination happening when it happened with Skye's difficulty bonus before nerf-batting it, please. From what can be gleaned from YouTube it is at best "uncommon". Given the randomization factor of each branch of the tech tree, including breakthroughs, for each game, I'm not sure that it requires any adjustments as things presently stand.

 

[Lt Loco]

Yup that's a bug or rather a balance issue that slipped by me. I'm going to have a look at Alien Imprints and repeatable tech in general. Unfortunately I can't give you an ETA when the fixes will be pushed as they may require some more rigorous testing.

P.S. This issue is not present in all playthroughs as you have to be lucky enough to get the Alien Imprints breakthrough and the Martian Copyrights tech has to be sorted early with a low cost. So there's a big chance that it won't affect your first games.

I'm not really concerned because of all the RNG involved. It seems like a "simple" fix is to: (one or two of the following)
1) Make outsourced RnD not work on repeatable techs, especially money generating techs,
2) Outsourcing becomes progressively more expensive the more you use it,
3) repeatable techs become more expensive as you research them, probably exponentially,
4) Limit the amount of outsourced RND you can buy at any given time

Without knowing your code, I'd rate the "ease" of coding (I do lightweight coding for my job) each fix to be:
1) Hard to be error proof. Simple tooltip change for players to see why outsourcing doesn't work.
2) It's a count, plus storing the count in a save file. It also requires a decent amount of tooltip changes, and some gameplay testing to verify it's rational.
3) Same as 2.
4) Easiest to code. It's a simple limit on the number that outsourcing can provide in your researching code, plus writing a bunch of tooltip code to tell people "hey you won't get any benefit for paying more"

 

[KDubya]

Having the cost go up each time when researching repeatable techs would be good.

Skye's difficult playthrough got stupidly easy once he started using the positive feedback loop. It made both money and research limitless. Even if its rare it'd still ruin any sense of challenge. I'd hate to be scratching away, barely surviving a tough start and then due to RNG get an 'i win' tech abuse loop that would effectively end the run.

If the cost increased each time then there'd be a limit of only a few times that you could do it before it would stop the positive feedback loop which sounds fair as it would reward your luck but not give you infinite money and research.

 

[ylmrog]

Even if its rare it'd still ruin any sense of challenge.

It doesn't ruin anything if you do not let it. There is nothing forcing a player to buy research upgrades, rinse and repeat. So, if you get it, use it for the money and don't buy research upgrades with the proceeds of the research (or just do it once). If I were (or get to) this situation I will just make a choice.

It's also worth nothing that if you get this early on in easy mode (lots of funds) it will make it super easy mode.. some people want to play that way. That's ok.

I am not sure why so many even care about this or how it affects other players play style. Mods will be in place probably day one to reduce research costs/time and everything else. it matters not if they patch this. If you are the type of person who would use this, (it's not a mystery that this isn't intended) you'll use a mod if it's changed.

If this were multiplayer it would be an issue but it's not really an issue.

Skye made it a point to make it clear this was kinda cheating, he harped on it over and over and yet he kept doing it over and over. It invalidated his game play at that difficulty. It changed his entire decision making plan. He can no longer claim he "beat" the game at 485, because he didn't, or even that it's doable. He even used the money to buy supplies, but he had a choice. He could have saved the game, done a 5 minute quick run through it to make a point, then reloaded and played it straight.

(I assume you can reload a saved state.. hopefully)

He is clearly the type of player who will use any advantage and while there is nothing wrong with that, at all, it completely invalidates every step he took after he did it for the second time in the context of "485". As soon as he started doing it, it was easy mode.

I personally do not want it changed. I want to be given the option on my second, third or 10th playthrough without using actual mods. I want to play the game "straight" but also maybe once given an in game "cheat" just to see how it works out.

 

[KDubya]

It doesn't ruin anything if you do not let it. There is nothing forcing a player to buy research upgrades, rinse and repeat. So, if you get it, use it for the money and don't buy research upgrades with the proceeds of the research (or just do it once). If I were (or get to) this situation I will just make a choice.

It's also worth nothing that if you get this early on in easy mode (lots of funds) it will make it super easy mode.. some people want to play that way. That's ok.

I am not sure why so many even care about this or how it affects other players play style. Mods will be in place probably day one to reduce research costs/time and everything else. it matters not if they patch this. If you are the type of person who would use this, (it's not a mystery that this isn't intended) you'll use a mod if it's changed.

If this were multiplayer it would be an issue but it's not really an issue.

Skye made it a point to make it clear this was kinda cheating, he harped on it over and over and yet he kept doing it over and over. It invalidated his game play at that difficulty. It changed his entire decision making plan. He can no longer claim he "beat" the game at 485, because he didn't, or even that it's doable. He even used the money to buy supplies, but he had a choice. He could have saved the game, done a 5 minute quick run through it to make a point, then reloaded and played it straight.

(I assume you can reload a saved state.. hopefully)

He is clearly the type of player who will use any advantage and while there is nothing wrong with that, at all, it completely invalidates every step he took after he did it for the second time in the context of "485". As soon as he started doing it, it was easy mode.

I personally do not want it changed. I want to be given the option on my second, third or 10th playthrough without using actual mods. I want to play the game "straight" but also maybe once given an in game "cheat" just to see how it works out.

I also would have preferred if Skye had made a save, showed the abuse of the feedback loop and then went back and toughed it out the way he had been. After he stopped his research went from like 11,000 to 800 or so.

Balance in a single player game matters just as much as in a multiplayer.

 

[Turin the Mad]

Because the RNG is highly unlikely to smile so favorably, were similar circumstances to occur I would happily abuse the Heck out of it. There are still disasters to deal with and colonists to manage. Just because the challenge is lessened does not mean it is eliminated.

 

[xigunder]

Skye is a very good gamer and simply used what was provided by the game. He also made a point about the possibilities of misuse but did not know at the time that it wasn't intended. There is absolutely NO ethical or moral reason for using the game mechanics to assist his play, just as anyone else does every game. I might also point out that he openly communicated the possibility that this was possibly an error or unintended system and as it turns out, the company agreed this was missed and is addressing the problem. As to denigrating Skye for not raising his nose in the air and refusing to use the tools provided (like a few have stated), well - spare me. If you decided to not do this it a decision for you alone and you have little self righteous justification for accusations against someone else. If it is self satisfying to refuse, that is fine. But please leave Skye alone as his startup and play have helped a lot of us and increased our desire to get the game. I have pre-ordered and Skye is one of the streamers who convinced me to pay for the game. So Skye, thanks.

 

[LVRugger]

An easy way to slow down but not prevent the use of this exploit would be to use the same system of "collaboration loss" as with research buildings and explorers - each concurrent use provides diminishing returns (20% each time?). That way it is still viable but not game-breaking.