Marrying commoners

[Choombi]

We've all had this, you're the emperor of AwesomeLand, the most powerful realm in the world, and unmarried.

You're the most suitable bachelor in your area, and the great kings are standing in a line asking you take their daughter/sister's hand in marriage...this one's fine, 16, older sister to a regent king, solid stats.

Wait, is that a lowborn lustful Midas touched genius with a stewardship and intrigue of over 20? Taken!

And the penalty for doing that is a measly 400 prestige, you'll have over 5000 by the time of your death, so this is definitely worth it, and you can just marry that girl to your younger brother anyway.

I'm pretty sure we'd all pick that commoner lady in that situation(unless you really feel like stealing that kingdom), and that seems...too easy, the punishment for that is more than worth the extra 1-2 demesne and the chance for a genius child.

Should the game incentivise players to marry the noble princess more and if so how? And are there significant examples of relatively lowborn queens/kings that were picked over seemingly more suitable competitors primarily due to their competence?

 

[BrianJohnson]

I think its fine. I've done this and the offspring was born with no special traits, making me wish I had taken a princess for a shot at some land. Its a gamble.

 

[Mike Louis]

In a ideal world the game should incentivize you to marry someone from within you station (same tier or either one tier above or below). However some regions / religions lack suitable spouses for rulers and that's why you sometimes see Emperors and Kings marry a lowborn. It's even worse if you're playing a female ruler since many AI rulers would rather kill off their surplus younger sons than marry them off to a ruling Empress / Queen / Duchess (must be afraid of said ruler pressing their husband's claim in the future). Take my personal mod for example, in that mod's game world AI rulers should be more willing to marry within their station since with the existence of ahistorical matriarchal realms the number of suitable spouse prestige wise is increased. Starting from the mod's 769 startdate within a couple of generations a king or duke should be willing to marry off a surplus younger son to a powerful queen or duchess in order to seal an alliance. Rulers ingame should only marry lowborns only as a final resort (they're 40+ years old and childless).

 

[thevmag]

When you're King/Emperor of Everywherelandia, yeah, no big deal choosing an adequate commoner over royal blood. Henry VIII started a collection of them.

When you're Lowlevel Duke of Nowheria or the King of Irreleventia, that 200~ prestige penalty from marrying a nobody can potentially hurt more than poor stats: that's prestige that could go towards building your custom kingdom/empire, or if you're tribal then 200 prestige taken away from your tribal armies and upgrades.

It balances out. When you're small enough to care about prestige, it can be a huge risk-reward decision. When you're so big that you wipe your butt with prestige? Well, it's good to be the king.

 

[Naufragus]

If the AI could educate children then there would be more decent nobles. As the time passes in game the nobles get worse and worse. I honestly think the AI goes out of its way to produce horrible nobles.

Even when the parents are great, they will educate some some swineherds kids rather than their own

 

[Helios Panoptes]

Should the game incentivise players to marry the noble princess more and if so how? And are there significant examples of relatively lowborn queens/kings that were picked over seemingly more suitable competitors primarily due to their competence?

Empress Theodora would be the most dramatic, I think.

 

[Lord_P]

The ideal situation would be to breed family lines of genius and strong children and then marry them to each other. Do not further the heritage of traitless children, unless you want to marry them to people with traits. Cleanse all branches that produce inbred.

This was to the question of high-born wife or low-born genius wife.

 

[kmh42]

Everywherelandia ... Duke of Nowheria ... King of Irreleventia

You Made my morning, thank you.

We've all had this, you're the emperor of AwesomeLand, the most powerful realm in the world, and unmarried.

You're the most suitable bachelor in your area, and the great kings are standing in a line asking you take their daughter/sister's hand in marriage...this one's fine, 16, older sister to a regent king, solid stats.

Wait, is that a lowborn lustful Midas touched genius with a stewardship and intrigue of over 20? Taken!

And the penalty for doing that is a measly 400 prestige, you'll have over 5000 by the time of your death, so this is definitely worth it, and you can just marry that girl to your younger brother anyway.

I'm pretty sure we'd all pick that commoner lady in that situation(unless you really feel like stealing that kingdom), and that seems...too easy, the punishment for that is more than worth the extra 1-2 demesne and the chance for a genius child.

Should the game incentivise players to marry the noble princess more and if so how? And are there significant examples of relatively lowborn queens/kings that were picked over seemingly more suitable competitors primarily due to their competence?

I have to admit, since 2.5 I have more motivation to marry a foreign or vassal nobel then ever. I never ever married myself or one of my children or siblings to a vassal before because it was useless. Same goes for foreign realm that I don't want/need a claim. A NAP is sometime all I need with the HRE or this multi Duke who hates me just to secure my possession.

 

[Choombi]

If the AI could educate children then there would be more decent nobles. As the time passes in game the nobles get worse and worse. I honestly think the AI goes out of its way to produce horrible nobles.

Even when the parents are great, they will educate some some swineherds kids rather than their own

While true, this is not related to the point I was making.
The point being that given a genius lowborn spouse with excellent stats and a princess with good stats , the lowborn is the better choice is 90%, and that it's wrong.

The ideal situation would be to breed family lines of genius and strong children and then marry them to each other. Do not further the heritage of traitless children, unless you want to marry them to people with traits. Cleanse all branches that produce inbred.

This was to the question of high-born wife or low-born genius wife.

Exactly, and that outweighs concerns that in real life were the most important to lords choosing a wife.

Empress Theodora would be the most dramatic, I think.

The one with Justinian, correct? My personal impression is that while she was clearly very competent what with holding the empire together while he was busy surviving a disease with a 99.999% mortality rate, Justinian's primary reason for marrying her was that he was genuinely taken with her.

then again, this is rather Irrelevant as we can't really confirm either way.

I have to admit, since 2.5 I have more motivation to marry a foreign or vassal nobel then ever. I never ever married myself or one of my children or siblings to a vassal before because it was useless. Same goes for foreign realm that I don't want/need a claim. A NAP is sometime all I need with the HRE or this multi Duke who hates me just to secure my possession.

You've got a point there, good job paradox


Anyway, my reason for making this thread was that I think the game should punish you for marrying someone far below your station, I'm not very good very good at modern british history, but I recall George VI marrying a daughter of an earl causing quite a commotion, if anything, the more powerful you are then the more you should be expected to marry someone of high status.

 

[smellymummy]

the spouse's stats have more of an impact on your game than most of everything else they might provide. That's the problem right there.

Imagine how things would be if the diplomacy, stewardship and intrigue of your significant other did not affect your realm?

In most cases, you can marry your own close relative to gain all of the advantages of a noble marriage. Including the joke loss of prestige you get from marrying the lowborn lady

 

[Thure]

There are (nearly) no commoners ingame. Most of the lowborn people are still nobles just with a lower rank than baron.

Lowborns ingame ARE NOT commoners. They are mostly nobles too.

 

[kmh42]

Anyway, my reason for making this thread was that I think the game should punish you for marrying someone far below your station, I'm not very good very good at modern british history, but I recall George VI marrying a daughter of an earl causing quite a commotion, if anything, the more powerful you are then the more you should be expected to marry someone of high status.

I think the positive outcomes of marring a noble woman are enough to encourage the player to do so. NAP, alliance, prestige and future claims are enough for me. Of course when I have the position when I not badly need any of those, I marry a lowborn with good stats. I am OK with the current situation.

 

[Simmy93]

Its one of those situations where you have to choose between mechanics and realmism. I personally view lowborns in my court as either extraordinary people or servants that, as many servants did, reached above their station. If I'm roleplaying a game I won't have lowborn marriages unless they fall in love and then there are consiquences. For a purely ironman, maximum potential game lowborns are key for breeding.

 

[Sirrobert1]

Do remember that commoners in this game aren't peasants. They are the lower nobility.

 

[Choombi]

My bad, I should have refrained from using the word commoners.
That said, it's still low nobility, and it was still practically unheard of in RL discounting cases of marriages of love.

 

[Simmy93]

My bad, I should have refrained from using the word commoners.
That said, it's still low nobility, and it was still practically unheard of in RL discounting cases of marriages of love.

It isn't that unheard of. Most Dukes, Counts, Barons, Marquiss, take your pick married from inside their communities unless they were significant nobility in which case they usually intermarried with other ducal houses or continental houses. There is the age old lesson, "If she isn't noble enough, make her noble enough." Any lowborn woman who would marry a King would have a lineage conjured up and a title bestowed.

 

[ruzen]

I do think It's fine the way It is too but I would love to introduce her/him to the realm too. Just like in "make a groom ambition" introducing events.

 

[Choombi]

It isn't that unheard of. Most Dukes, Counts, Barons, Marquiss, take your pick married from inside their communities unless they were significant nobility in which case they usually intermarried with other ducal houses or continental houses. There is the age old lesson, "If she isn't noble enough, make her noble enough." Any lowborn woman who would marry a King would have a lineage conjured up and a title bestowed.

I would really like examples of such marriages


Also, what I want is a sort of a penalty for marrying someone a certain number of tiers from you, assuming 6 tiers of Is/related to Unlanded-Baron-Count-Duke-King-Emperor, like vassal penalty or something of the like, a Triggered modifier on the ruler.
Let's go with 3 , so if you're an emperor and you're marrying a relative of a count, -5, -10 for baron, and -15 for no relation to anyone landed, if you're a count you can marry freely.
The modifier would stay until the gap is closed, either by landing the spouse or a relative of the spouse with a title of appropriate rank, or yourself going down enough.

 

[Gnorrosch]

You're the most suitable bachelor in your area, and the great kings are standing in a line asking you take their daughter/sister's hand in marriage...this one's fine, 16, older sister to a regent king, solid stats. Wait, is that a lowborn lustful Midas touched genius with a stewardship and intrigue of over 20? Taken!

The problem is quite easy: You have a flat pay (Prestige) for a marriage with a high-born noble, while you have long term advantages (Stats) for marriage with a low-born noble.

To solve the problem, you need to assure that punishment and reward are on the same scale: The higher the rank, the higher the bonus to state stats. The daughter of an empire might be personally be less able to run your state, but she will be in a much better state to hire excellent counsellors that inform her decisions. Your own idea with the opinion penalty would work as well, even though the familie's prestige should probably be taken into account as well (the recently exiled king of Jerusalem, even though unlanded, is probably still a better choice than the daughter of Baron FarOutOfTownIstan.

 

[Simmy93]

I would really like examples of such marriages


Also, what I want is a sort of a penalty for marrying someone a certain number of tiers from you, assuming 6 tiers of Is/related to Unlanded-Baron-Count-Duke-King-Emperor, like vassal penalty or something of the like, a Triggered modifier on the ruler.
Let's go with 3 , so if you're an emperor and you're marrying a relative of a count, -5, -10 for baron, and -15 for no relation to anyone landed, if you're a count you can marry freely.
The modifier would stay until the gap is closed, either by landing the spouse or a relative of the spouse with a title of appropriate rank, or yourself going down enough.

We take prestige for granted but in some runs the penalties for marrying so low are apparnet. Perhaps prestige instead of being flat or by tier it should simply scale by your own prestige like truce breaking. That would definitely make things interesting.