Marry your very own sister XD

[yannou94]

Hello, in our timeline the hellenistic kings often/sometimes married their own sister to "keep the bloodline pure" XD (the kings of Egypt, Pontus, Commagene, maybe the Seleucids...) I don't know if there is going to have royal marriages in the game but I'd love to have this possibility. (maybe a bonus in legitimacy counterbalanced with physical weakness(but not allways for exemple Ptolemy V was born from Brother-Sister marriage and was considered very athletic), especially if it occur on several sucessive generations
What do you think in term of historical accuracy added in the game not on the ethical ground

 

[IanReSc]

It is a Paradox game.

Of course there will be incest and bloodshed aplenty.

 

[Darth.]

It is a Paradox game.

Of course there will be incest and bloodshed aplenty.

I don't know. EU4 is pretty lacking in incest.

 

[lucaluca]

Did they actually know that incest would cause kids to be deformed or ill and they didn’t care or were they clueless?

 

[TomatoJuice]

Did they actually know that incest would cause kids to be deformed or ill and they didn’t care or were they clueless?

Neither because that's mostly a Myth.
It is true that continued breeding in a closed circle leads to a heap of health problems. But that's normally something that takes generations.
Except of course there is already a big health problem in both partners but that's a different kind of story.

 

[yannou94]

I do agree with you TomatoJuice, in Europe there is the sad exemple of the Hasburg King of Spain , not a sister-brother child but a repetitive over centuries reproduction between cousin/aunt/uncle/niece. The daughter of Mithridates VI and her sister-queen Laodice also had a double row of teeth^^

Yet Cleopatra VII and her sister were very much inbredded and where considered precocious geniuses (Cleopatra spoked several languages and had a brilliant mind or so they say and Arsinoe IV was feared by Ceasar and almost killed him during the Pharos debacle.)
and she was not that ugly XD.

on the plus side of inbreeding there is no scheme to destroy the house from within via an other dynasty (like Antiochus the great hope to do by marrying her daugther Cleopatra to Ptolemy V, but it can lead to serious hate into the family ( the most famous exemple is Ptolemy VIII, who killed is nephew and his own son from her sister, and tried real hard to kill her sister and his brother, (yeah great guy XD)

 

[Tisifoni12]

I don't know. EU4 is pretty lacking in incest.

Hapsburgs . . .

 

[Darth.]

Hapsburgs . . .

That's what (allegedly) happened in real life. Doesn't really happen in EU4. When's the last time you got a Habsburg as a consort while your dynasty is Habsburg?

 

[Tisifoni12]

With the Hapsburgs it was cousins marrying cousins, nieces marrying uncles, rather than sisters and brothers. I'd suspect also lots of marriages between Spain and Austria.

 

[Darth.]

With the Hapsburgs it was cousins marrying cousins, nieces marrying uncles, rather than sisters and brothers. I'd suspect also lots of marriages between Spain and Austria.

In which case we still don't know it's incest because EU4 doesn't track dynasties across multiple countries and individual relationships like CK2 does.

 

[Captain Frakas]

If I'm recalling correctly, Hellenic kings [commoners] didn't married between brothers and sisters but specifically [had the legal possibility] between half-brothers and half-sisters (and not even that, but something more specific, like the half-sister and the half brother who share the same father... the exact rule depended on cultural areas).

Neither because that's mostly a Myth.
It is true that continued breeding in a closed circle leads to a heap of health problems. But that's normally something that takes generations.
Except of course there is already a big health problem in both partners but that's a different kind of story.

What do incest is to make more probable for recessive traits to activate (it became more probable to have the pair of recessive traits), but it statistically tend to indeed take generations before having this opportunity and, beside, if there is no bad recessive traits in your genetic patrimony, then there is no problems.

Many "bad" traits are recessives but not all recessive traits are "bad". Some traits like having blond hairs or blue eyes are recessives and couldn't be labelled being absolutely "bad", albeit they can be contextually "bad" (in territories where the sun shine too much, for example).

In fact, if you can be sure that you have no "bad" genetics in your family, it is even theoretically safer to favour reproduction with your family members, as favouring reproduction outside is a risk to let "bad" traits enter into the patrimony of your children.

 

[yannou94]

I must have to desagree with you Captain Frakas , most inbreeded marriage between hellenistic kings happend between full brother and sister; the only exemples I remember between half siblings are Ptolemy Keranos and Arsinoe, and between Alexander II and Olympias II of Epirus.

Tthe rest are between full blooded siblings Ptolemy II and Arsinoe, Arsinoe III and Ptolemy IV ,Ptolemy VI and Cleopatra, Ptolemy VIII and Cleopatra, Ptolemy IX and X with Cleopatra Selene, Ptolemy XIII and XIV with Cleopatra VII, Demetrius I Soter and Laodice (but it is not sure that it was indeed her own sister), Seleucos IV and Antiochus IV with Laodice(not sure too), Mithridates VI of Pontus and Laodice, Antiochus III of Commagene and Iopata .

so it's two against thirteen (and I may have forgotten some of them), the odds are clearly for full blooded siblings marriage.

 

[Captain Frakas]

You are right, I wasn't recalling correctly. Thank you for having spotting it. In fact, the limitation I did remembered (from Lévi-Strauss) was for commoners, not kings and gods. Athenians were allowed to spouse their paternal half-sisters, while being forbidden to spouse their full sisters or their maternal half-sisters.

On the contrary, Spartans were allowed to spouse their maternal half-sisters, while being forbidden to spouse their full sisters or their paternal half-sisters.

Kings and Gods sometime didn't cared much about such laws...

 

[Panzergruppe]

Probably won't be in the game, thank God, in the same way under age marriages aren't allowed but they do happen in real life.

 

[yannou94]

I hope it will be in the game it would be more historically accurate XD under age marriages yeah it happened but back then it was not about love but more about political alliances, like the son of Cleopatra VII , Alexander Helios being married to Iopata of Media Atropatene (she was ten at that time, he was thirteen ...)

 

[Thrake]

What do incest is to make more probable for recessive traits to activate (it became more probable to have the pair of recessive traits), but it statistically tend to indeed take generations before having this opportunity and, beside, if there is no bad recessive traits in your genetic patrimony, then there is no problems.

Many "bad" traits are recessives but not all recessive traits are "bad". Some traits like having blond hairs or blue eyes are recessives and couldn't be labelled being absolutely "bad", albeit they can be contextually "bad" (in territories where the sun shine too much, for example).

In fact, if you can be sure that you have no "bad" genetics in your family, it is even theoretically safer to favour reproduction with your family members, as favouring reproduction outside is a risk to let "bad" traits enter into the patrimony of your children.

Just need once. If husband and wife have it then it's 25% chance to express the recessive character (ok, that's simplistic genetics and would depend on which character but that's the idea). Besides good and bad is all relative especially in reguards to environment, that's some weird talk you're having here. In fact the wide spread of that kind of reproduction despite intense waste of energy is linked to the spreading of characters, so yes it creates bad combinations but good combinations are favoured, so mixing genes is the best outcome, even your "best" stallion today might not be the best fit later on if the environment changes.

It would be weird to not have it somehow seing as how it is quite a famous practice in Egypt in the time and while it is silenced in EU4 the dynastic game is also highly abstracted.

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

You are right, I wasn't recalling correctly. Thank you for having spotting it. In fact, the limitation I did remembered (from Lévi-Strauss) was for commoners, not kings and gods. Athenians were allowed to spouse their paternal half-sisters, while being forbidden to spouse their full sisters or their maternal half-sisters.

On the contrary, Spartans were allowed to spouse their maternal half-sisters, while being forbidden to spouse their full sisters or their paternal half-sisters.

Kings and Gods sometime didn't cared much about such laws...

The practise wasn't really Greek to begin with, but something the eastern kings picked up from Egyptians and Iranians. In Egypt at least the common folk did practise it too (as did common Iranians at later date, not sure about this period).

I imagine in this game consanguine marriage would be restricted by country tag, since religion and culture don't make sense in themselves.

Probably won't be in the game, thank God, in the same way under age marriages aren't allowed but they do happen in real life.

Why "probably"? Paradox has already introduced the mechanic in CK2 (where it was restricted to Zoroastrians and one Oriental Orthodox heresy) and it makes even more sense in this game. Seems more probable that it will be in the game than not.

 

[.Me]

The practise wasn't really Greek to begin with, but something the eastern kings picked up from Egyptians and Iranians. In Egypt at least the common folk did practise it too (as did common Iranians at later date, not sure about this period).

I imagine in this game consanguine marriage would be restricted by country tag, since religion and culture don't make sense in themselves.

In my vision the ideal Hellenic religion is similar to Tengrism in Eu4, a syncretic religion when you can choose a secondary religion and make it syncretic to your own, or maybe more than one, so if you are hellenic but syncretic with the egyptian or the iranian religions, you can very well marry your sister.

 

[yannou94]

.Me, I agree with the fact that inbreeded marriage should occur only in the area influenced by Egypt and Iranian civilisation( so from Asia Minor up to Bactria)

Even though half Brother Sister wedding occured between Ptolemy Keraunos and her half sister in Macedonia , it was more of a move to seize power for Ptolemy and the wedding between Alexander II and Olympias II of Epirus was more of an exception than a rule (Pirrhus had been welcomed to Alexandria and befriended Ptolemy and later bring the custom with him in Europe)

The house of the Antigonids, the dominant power over the Greek peninsula never used incestuous marriage.

 

[Thure]

Probably won't be in the game, thank God, in the same way under age marriages aren't allowed but they do happen in real life.

Do you play CK2? There is a lot of incest... and marriage with 16... some historical characters are married with 12 or earlier in the right start dates. Also you can sacrifice Children to Satan... or to Pagan gods...