Marquesses and Margraves, a simple solution? Suggestion

[Edam42]

Hi there,

Like some, I was slightly disappointed about the lack of any advancement in the title-rank system, such as lack of multiple lieges or more ranks, but I can see these as non-essential for many people.

However, there could be a simple solution to marquesses, ie. without adding in more ranks; what about a 'designate march option' that grants a count-tier character's primary title/capital holding immunity from de jure claims by duchy characters in the same realm, as well giving the holder a new title and an opinion bonus. There could be a limited to the number per kingdom/empire and removed if the character forms a duchy.

This would enhance the immersive feeling of the world, without changing any of the core mechanics significantly.

 

[Serenity84]

Should be done via the vassal obligation system. Where you can give some people certain rights. Could result in them having more levies for example, but maybe forbid external wars.

 

[Edam42]

Yes, definitely should be part of the vassal obligation system, my main consideration was keeping them distinct from duchies but other features could also be applicable. They shouldn't forbid external wars though; for example, the marcher lords of England were specifically created to fight the Welsh, both defensively and offensively.

 

[Limbojack]

I agree with Serenity. This could easily be achieved by the new feudal contracts, at least for Christians, but it would require having more than the three options shown in the DD. If I'm being completely honest, I feel like they are doing themselves a disfavor regarding the feudal contract. We should be able to dictate the vassal's tax, levy, law, and religious obligations separately, and laws would, for example, decide whether or not the vassal was allowed to construct castles or cities without the liege's approval. The vassals with the least strict obligations could get the title of marcher lord or whatever is culturally appropriate for that character.

 

[grommile]

Most Margraviates should be treated as Duchy-rank anyway, in much the same way that the historic County of Barcelona is treated as a Duchy.

 

[Limbojack]

Most Margraviates should be treated as Duchy-rank anyway, in much the same way that the historic County of Barcelona is treated as a Duchy.

Was that the case for most magravites, or was Barcelona the odd kid in class?

 

[Ezumiyr]

However, there could be a simple solution to marquesses, ie. without adding in more ranks; what about a 'designate march option' that grants a count-tier character's primary title/capital holding immunity from de jure claims by duchy characters in the same realm, as well giving the holder a new title and an opinion bonus.

Mechanically it's a consistent solution (however not perfect), but historically marquesses weren't immuned to internal claims, and didn't necessarily have better opinions of their liege just like that (it's rather that rulers generally put trustworthy people there).
I also said it's not perfect - because why would you not just spam marquesses at your borders? And how would the AI choose? Btw, those are also potential issues when it comes to more detailed vassal contracts. The devs have to make sure that it doesn't make it to easy for players to just pick the best options everytime and spam troops or levies at wish. And be sure that the AI manages to handle more complex contracts in a right way. It seems very hard to do imo, as a human player will always be able to take advantage of that system while it can be the cause of all kinds of problems for the AI. I'm not sure it's worth the trouble currently. If the devs manage to create such a system it would be wonderful, but it's not really that simple.

This would enhance the immersive feeling of the world

Because it would add some marquis, however I'm not sure it would add them in an immersive way. It feels too much like an EU4-like solution IMO.

Maybe it should just rename historical marquesses as marquesses when those territories are at a border. Then if you want to install trustworthy vassals there and build their castles or give them money, do that.

 

[Edam42]

Mechanically it's a consistent solution (however not perfect), but historically marquesses weren't immuned to internal claims, and didn't necessarily have better opinions of their liege just like that (it's rather that rulers generally put trustworthy people there).
I also said it's not perfect - because why would you not just spam marquesses at your borders? And how would the AI choose? Btw, those are also potential issues when it comes to more detailed vassal contracts. The devs have to make sure that it doesn't make it to easy for players to just pick the best options everytime and spam troops or levies at wish. And be sure that the AI manages to handle more complex contracts in a right way. It seems very hard to do imo, as a human player will always be able to take advantage of that system while it can be the cause of all kinds of problems for the AI. I'm not sure it's worth the trouble currently. If the devs manage to create such a system it would be wonderful, but it's not really that simple.


Because it would add some marquis, however I'm not sure it would add them in an immersive way. It feels too much like an EU4-like solution IMO.

Maybe it should just rename historical marquesses as marquesses when those territories are at a border. Then if you want to install trustworthy vassals there and build their castles or give them money, do that.

Yes, of course its not perfect, they've designed a system where it would have to be tacked on after the fact, and since the ranking system is a core part of the game any addition to it would have to be limited.

I agree, the opinion boost should be for the granting of the title, not inherent in having the title. I also suggested that there be limited number per realm.

The reason I suggest they be immune from de jure claims is that if not they would soon disappear if they are ranked below duchies, which they are historically. This is the core of my suggestion. The marquesses should still be vulnerable to title claims etc.

(a less useful and more ahistorical way this mechanic could be used is for archduchies in empires, where one or two duke could be allowed to be granted the title, and be immune from any de jure claims by vassal kingdoms, e.g. the Kingdom of Bavaria/Archduchy of Austria. I like this less, but I use it just to illustrate my suggestion).