Markets are a total joke

[OfficerBrennan]

I think prices could be a little more sticky, since it takes a big blob of an empire dumping stock to tank market prices faster than it can normalise. It's an imitation of the classic supply and demand model at best.

Make Keynesian economics great again and make market prices sticky!

 

[Ezumiyr]

It would be great to have charts to see how the prices evolve.

 

[Tisifoni12]

It would make sense if you could post how much of your stockpile you are willing to trade and the total amount available on the market was limited to the 'combined tradable stockpiles'
It would make even more sense if you were only able to trade for the content of the 'combined tradable stockpiles' that was contributed by empires that are not hostile to you and can trace a trade route to you.

Lovely 'little' coding job for someone ! #sarcasm

As it is it seems like a fix for a defective game aspect rather than a good game mechanism.

Next game I might limit my Empire size and try gaming the market to gain resources rather than the tedious business of 'mining'.

 

[Adantigus]

Supreme Commander

Yeah, they don't cheat, but even a moderately skilled player can hold off 2-3 max level computer opponents indefinitely by building towers and watching them mindlessly attack again and again. So I don't see how that example is supposed to support an argument about either AI quality or game challenge.

 

[Atreides]

As a core concept the market is plenty functional. Some of the production metrics for the buildings need to be modified but that will occur as the system is explored.

The key change that I think needs to be added is that prices need a longer delay before they move back to 'normal' state. That way if someone repeatedly just keeps dumping food onto the market, the price will just keep cycling down all the way to .1 or whatever they decide is the minimum allowable price.

 

[exi123]

They could also add a maximal amount of resources which you can buy or sell to the system which re- or degenerates by time. This maximum could increase linear when the empires are growing. When the "stockpiles" on the market are low the prize is high and vize versa...

 

[Silens]

Limiting the market only works when the other big problem is solved: the constant lack of all resources across all empires.

That we heavily need the market in the first place is a consequence of empires struggling to get a good profit margin in all areas. Up to 2.1 it wasn't a problem to get a stable credit/mineral income in the lower hundreds, now you have problems to keep it at 100. Given that minerals also need to be converted to alloys and that the prices of certain things are as high as with 2.1, it is no wonder that instant converters like the market are so badly needed.

So, if you want to trim down the market and its usefulness, you need to strengthen all local economies. I think this would also help the AI, as it cannot walk the fine line of economic foresight and balance.

 

[AmpsterMan]

I would love to have a robust civilian economy like in Victoria 2. That's not going to happen and so the new system is good enough for what it's there to do: help you do quick and easy adjustments at the price of market fees. If you rely on it for anything long term, you're probably having some inefficiency somewhere.

 

[vortexsurfer]

I would love to have a robust civilian economy like in Victoria 2. That's not going to happen and so the new system is good enough for what it's there to do: help you do quick and easy adjustments at the price of market fees. If you rely on it for anything long term, you're probably having some inefficiency somewhere.

This "quick and easy" solution for your probably self inflicted shortcomings is in fact a dumb down and kills a lot of Stellaris' challenge. The game is just too easy with this. As I said before: why not abtract the whole "resources" thing then? Being able to exchange every resource to another infinitely with a moderate fee undermines the whole economic mechanics. You can actually build whatever you want on planets without cosnsidering your needs.

You can support large battlefleets with agriculture economy only, this is a joke

 

[AmpsterMan]

This "quick and easy" solution for your probably self inflicted shortcomings is in fact a dumb down and kills a lot of Stellaris' challenge. The game is just too easy with this. As I said before: why not abtract the whole "resources" thing then? Being able to exchange every resource to another infinitely with a moderate fee undermines the whole economic mechanics. You can actually build whatever you want on planets without cosnsidering your needs.

You can support large battlefleets with agriculture economy only, this is a joke

Yeah I get that, it sucks. The only solace I can offer is that it's at least not as capable as a more balance nation. Selling all of one resource makes it so one is very vulnerable to price changes.

 

[Jman5]

the internal market would be useless if it was based off actual production. you could only buy back stuff that you sold to the market before.

the galactic market could work more or less, but it would likely be a dead feature. you'd offer your excess minerals and food on the market just like every other empire and look for alloys just like every other empire so in the end noone would buy or sell anything.

so the infinite market that is disconnected from actual production is probably necessary to make the feature viable at all.

While this version of market might feel lackluster, image how real supply and demand would... well, not work. For example, there wouldn't probably ever be alloys for sale, and if there were, their cost would be atronomical. Might be same thing with consumer goods. You don't really sell these more advanced resources except in a case of emergency.
I don't think if its explained in-game, but the resources in the market represent private corporations not big enough to be empires. They are very abstracted, but then so is eveything else in Stellaris.

I'm not sure why so many people think a real marketplace couldn't work. What would happen is the price of Alloy would go up and up and up, allowing an individual who decided to heavily invest in alloy production to make more and more money. If everyone is buying and you're the only one selling, you're going to make a lot of money. Economies as a rule are not always going to be alloy-capped.

My suggestion is that you introduce some sort of baseline injection of resources into the internal and galactic market so there is always at least a limited supply of goods to buy. Lore explanation: resources produced by the private sector, and/or neutral 3rd party aliens (enclaves, fallen empires, caravaneers, etc). Monthly purchases/sales could be price-locked on a 10 year contract. Monthly buyers would get first dibs on the baseline resources injected by 3rd parties.

I would suggest you guys check out Endless Space 2's Marketplace to see ways they could improve it for Stellaris.

 

[vortexsurfer]

I'm not sure why so many people think a real marketplace couldn't work. What would happen is the price of Alloy would go up and up and up, allowing an individual who decided to heavily invest in alloy production to make more and more money. If everyone is buying and you're the only one selling, you're going to make a lot of money. Economies as a rule are not always going to be alloy-capped.

My suggestion is that you introduce some sort of baseline injection of resources into the internal and galactic market so there is always at least a limited supply of goods to buy. Lore explanation: resources produced by the private sector, and/or neutral 3rd party aliens (enclaves, fallen empires, caravaneers, etc). Monthly purchases/sales could be price-locked on a 10 year contract. Monthly buyers would get first dibs on the baseline resources injected by 3rd parties.

I would suggest you guys check out Endless Space 2's Marketplace to see ways they could improve it for Stellaris.

Wow, I think I have to pay ES2 another visit

 

[bunkerman]

honestly i see complaint against the market being infinite as ridiculous to me its immersion breaking how easily the price fluctuates like in mid game if i buy/sell even a very insignificant amount of res the price skyrockets to infinite to me that makes the market seem rather empty personally i think they should do better at actually smoothing out the market its very immersion breaking that 1 small country buying alloys for 2 battlehips can shortcircuit the alloy market for years when empires field hundreds of BS in their fleets

 

[EvilTom]

Why not just limit the resources on the internal market to a hard cap that is a some percentage or multiple of your monthly creation, or at least increase the cost increase/decrease and have it resettle of a span of a couple of months, not just reset in one?

I was always impressed by Distant Worlds: Universe representation of a private economy, where private ships would take cargo between places based upon demand. They would also go mining on their own and bring back resources. When you built something you would either use your state mined and owned resources or have to buy from the private market at market prices. You could also target supply lines with great success.

 

[vortexsurfer]

honestly i see complaint against the market being infinite as ridiculous to me its immersion breaking how easily the price fluctuates like in mid game if i buy/sell even a very insignificant amount of res the price skyrockets to infinite to me that makes the market seem rather empty personally i think they should do better at actually smoothing out the market its very immersion breaking that 1 small country buying alloys for 2 battlehips can shortcircuit the alloy market for years when empires field hundreds of BS in their fleets

this only shows that market prices are not connected to actual supply/demand. I never look at prices. I just hit "sell" when one of my stocks is full or "buy" when another hits zero. Or I do monthly trades. It's absolutely no challenge to balance out your resource flow anymore

 

[Mikhail_Mengsk]

It's why I dropped the game after 2.2 hit

Pre-2.2 AI was just as bad.

Supreme Commander's AI was bad, it basically required Sorian AI to be somewhat good. I remember beating the supposedly "hard" campaign's last scenario just turtling and nuking the objectives from across the map with T3 Strategic Artillery.

Homeworld 2? Seriously? The game where in campaign scenarios the AI had a number of ships directly proportional to the number of ships you had, meaning that doing good in previous scenarios actually made the game harder? Where (in the remastered version) i could easily solo a couple AIs on max difficulty without being actually even trying?

Come on now.

 

[Jorgen_CAB]

I did not know the AI never paid for anything but it make sense when I see certain prices being ridiculously high for very long times, prices no empire could ever afford to pay for long. The problem is that players can easily benefit from this by selling the goods that have ridiculous high prices. Which will make normal energy production from generator districts pointless since it warp the production model for players too.

They should include more scarcity into the game not less by introducing infinite ways to get any recourse you need at scripted price ranges.

This will never really work when done in this way.

If they want to go this way they should offer resources as packages you need to buy and if these packages are bought often the price go up and it it takes time to sell the packages prices on them goes down. But there is a finite number of packages and sizes of these packages generated.

This way they can injects some resources at some rates which would be based on the galactic production rates in general which would make sense.

The AI should need to pay for resources they buy. I think it is important this is the case, even if the AI might get some shaving of the price or something compared to players.

 

[Red Death]

To be fair, the infinite buying and selling is only because prices go quickly to their original state. If this weren't happening (or at a much muuuuccch slower pace) then for sure some of your empires will be in trouble big time, for instance in the case where one were to rely on selling all the food, where after a while you'll be trading a 1000:1 or worse.

Agreed, the infinite supply of resources on the market wouldn't be a problem if you eventually couldn't afford to buy them. In my opinion, all that needs to happen to fix the market system is to remove or drastically slow down that trend to the base price. (And fix those AI bugs mentioned before, of course.)

 

[durbal]

Speaking of AI and examples of good ones: Battle Brothers. It's a bit different AI from Stellaris (since it's only tactical-level), but Battle Brother has amazing AI that uses its tools effectively and even has room for 'personality' between different enemy types (Orc warriors are not as aggressive as Orc young or berserkers, zombies will try to swarm and even run directly into spearwalls, etc.). Goblin wolfriders will attempt to flank to undefended rear positions, enemies will try to break through line formations to get to vulnerable spots, 'smarter' enemies will prioritize terrain, the enemy will utilize effective group strategies that change depending on the battlefield conditions (e.g. will turtle and attack with ranged weapons when they sense they are more effective at ranged combat than you), etc. It's actually incredible.

And it was made by one programmer who made the rest of the game as well in his spare time away from his full time job.

(A nice bit of contrast and a severe blow to the people who insist that even competent AI is difficult.)

 

[vortexsurfer]

Pre-2.2 AI was just as bad.

Supreme Commander's AI was bad, it basically required Sorian AI to be somewhat good. I remember beating the supposedly "hard" campaign's last scenario just turtling and nuking the objectives from across the map with T3 Strategic Artillery.

Homeworld 2? Seriously? The game where in campaign scenarios the AI had a number of ships directly proportional to the number of ships you had, meaning that doing good in previous scenarios actually made the game harder? Where (in the remastered version) i could easily solo a couple AIs on max difficulty without being actually even trying?

Come on now.

AI in Stellaris is bad because they just don't have code for a lot of situations. Check out the change log for Glavius' AI mod, it's pretty much a revelation you can't unsee afterwards Yesterday I defeated a swarm in a war and their stations were lvl 4 but building slots were empty. It's just sad.