Marco Polo modifiers??

[Poopfaust]

Playing Beta. Reading Marco Polo focus, I thought it meant that Japan has an advantage: 50% attacks and 25% defense.

Even if I am interpreting this wrong (and that Marco is an advantage for China), here is what I see in the Battle Summary screen:

Japan Soft Attack Country +10% Country Specific -50%
Japan Hard Attack Country +10% Country Specific -50%
Japan Breakthrough Country +10%

China Attack Country -11.7%
China Hard Attack Country -11.7%
China Defense Country - 6.7%

Any help appreciated.

 

[Goodfontana]

Marco Polo has always been a debuff to Japan, that you can gradually remove via clicking the decision to escalate the war (which in turn increases war support for the US).

The Chinese have their own debuffs due to army corruption, but for them is harder to remove since they have to invest 100 army xp I think 3 times to get rid of them completely.

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

It's pretty specific at what you're getting: a 50% attack and 25% defence debuff when fighting against Chinese factions. You can also check the National Spirit tooltip for exactly that info.

 

[Poopfaust]

So Marco is a bad thing, the wording was a bit vague for me. Thank you both. What is the +10% Country bonus for Japan?

 

[--Yigito123--]

So Marco is a bad thing, the wording was a bit vague for me. Thank you both. What is the +10% Country bonus for Japan?

Probably the national spirit "Superior Will", which you get from the focus "Supremacy of Will". It gives more attack, defense and recovery rate.

 

[Poopfaust]

Thank you sir.

 

[aletoledo]

Japan is my favorite country and I'm playing them now. Couple of things:

1. Depending if you play with a mod or not, the chinese will attack you like mad. So when you're on the defense, you don't get that debuff.
2. While the "escalate war" decision removes the debuff it also gives the US war support. If you're trying to delay the US in getting the "giant awakes" focus, then you might want to live with the debuff until '39.

Personally I live with the debuff, even after the US gets giant awakes. Besides playing on the defense like I mentioned, there are so many other ways to get bonuses. Plus if you have bombers on ground support doing the bulk of your damage, I don't think the debuff affects them at all.

 

[donagel]

Two questions:
-What is the rationale for the Marco Polo debuffs? I assume its modeling some historical fact, but I don't know what it is.
-I just jumped back in HOI4, and am now finding that trying to do ANYTHING against China before the debuffs are lifted is usually suicidal, even with 14/4 templates. Amphib invasions might work if they are launched right at the outset of the war, but after that first one, I am finding it hard to get a foothold. Is this me playing poorly somehow, or is it just better to wait until you escalate past all the debuffs?

 

[Voigt]

It should symbolize the unwillingness of the Japanese Goverment to commit to the Chiense War, since it was started by the local military independently.

It could have been an ai_strategy but how it is designed is just a nation debuff you need to invest PP and time to remove, while becoming more and more "aggresive" so making US population more cautious and willing to prepare for war.

 

[MattZed]

Depending if you play with a mod or not, the chinese will attack you like mad. So when you're on the defense, you don't get that debuff.

I couldn't actually believe this was true... but I just tested it and found out it was.

The "-50% attack bonus" is -50% to hard and soft attack only when you're attacking, and the "-25% bonus" is -25% to your defense stat only while you're defending. (Well, you'd use breakthrough on offense, which never gets affected)

Since your defense is going to be so much higher than Chinese soft/hard attack, the defense penalty can be safely ignored.

I never would have guessed this is how it worked. Thanks for teaching me something!

 

[DaReal-BurningDeath]

It should symbolize the unwillingness of the Japanese Goverment to commit to the Chiense War, since it was started by the local military independently.

It could have been an ai_strategy but how it is designed is just a nation debuff you need to invest PP and time to remove, while becoming more and more "aggresive" so making US population more cautious and willing to prepare for war.

didn't knew that and always wondered what the backstory of that is.
From a thematic sense it would be cool to make this conflict more visible to the player not necesarrily with a rework but just with the backstory of it.

 

[aletoledo]

Two questions:
-What is the rationale for the Marco Polo debuffs? I assume its modeling some historical fact, but I don't know what it is.
-I just jumped back in HOI4, and am now finding that trying to do ANYTHING against China before the debuffs are lifted is usually suicidal, even with 14/4 templates. Amphib invasions might work if they are launched right at the outset of the war, but after that first one, I am finding it hard to get a foothold. Is this me playing poorly somehow, or is it just better to wait until you escalate past all the debuffs?

Regarding what to do before the debuffs, I would suggest naval invasions. If you look for specific areas, then you can cut off chinese reinforcements, which is the main problem in fighting them with a debuff. As long as they can re-inforce, then it's hopeless to attack.

The key to defeating the chinese is to lengthen the front as much as possible. Thats why I said to do naval invasions, it opens up additional fronts and thins out their troops. Once they are thin enough, then you can go on the offensive. Generally I find after about 4 naval beachheads, they start to get thin enough. While you're busy doing these, the chinese will be constantly attacking you, so you want to have your eventual attack troops getting training up on these waves. If you get them to elite veterancy, thats a +75% to attack, which nullifies the debuff from Marco Polo. Like I said above, I keep the debuff to ensure the US doesn't get the war support for Giant Awakes.

I think the reason I like japan the most is because you're constantly naval invading and learning how these mechanics work in the most efficient manner. Plus now with the GBP spirits, you can swap your special forces template for free. I like this since after I naval invade, I change the template to mountaineers to continue the fight with different bonuses. While the UK has an advisor that buffs special forces, you can promote one of your generals to get this same bonus.

 

[Crixus]

It is indeed a debuff of Japan which is to represent historically how Japan didn't commit all their forces and resources to the Sino-Japanese War at the beginning.

 

[donagel]

Ok, I recently have played the start of Japan through 1938 about 6 times, trying to get my feel for the game again and what I seen doesn't seem to match others posts. Just to set the scene, in all my run throughs I focus on industry/research early while building mainly CIVs. I usually have the first 2 infantry items and the first art item research within a few months of the start of the war. and I do put a point into the port in china and 2 in its infra. I do the SCW and get enough Army XP to have templates for 14/4 (no sup art) and 10-0 (with just entrenchment). I usually have at least 2 full armies of six or so 14/4 and the rest 10/0 and then maybe half an army of 12 (with more coming).

In all my playthroughs, with the debuff active, I go nowhere. Can't push up North(though normally I just try to hold there) and I MAY get an amphib invasion off, but its dicey. If I launch first day of war, I am usually successful, but after that, its a slog with many failed attempts..
I also see several people saying the Chinese will attack like mad. Maybe at the Naval invasion sites, but on the northern front they keep sending singe division attacking the central province. Not enough to really gain experience or cut into their supply.

If I wait for the debuff to be mostly gone, then things work smoothly. If anyone has any tips for pushing earlier, I would love to hear them.

I

 

[PorkchopSandwiches247]

In my experience the best way to wear down and beat China is to just park divisions safely behind that northern river and let them bash themselves to death trying to cross it while you get rid of your debuffs.

China has terrible terrain and supply, so having a significant air force is really the key to routing them. Also collaboration governments make things so much less painful…without them it seriously feels like you have to take every one of their victory points even in the barren 0 supply wastelands.

You probably can push earlier just through a super strong airforce, since your CAS and/tactical bombers dont care about the army debuff

 

[Poopfaust]

I am experiencing the same as far as China being a tough nut to crack. I am starting to make progress after about the 7th run (I am not that good depite the thousands of hours), but I am not sure what will happen when the USA gets into the act. In summary, I feel like Japan is the hardest major to play - I could be wrong.
PS - I also feel like waiting until late 1938 for Marco Polo is the way to go.., but I again, I am not very good. Good luck.

 

[Ringwraith_JP]

I just naval invade like crazy while escalating the war via decisions. It's a fairly quick win after that.

(if you really want to, you can set your navy to invasion support mission and your heavies will suport you on all coastal battles even after you finish the invasion. It's super helpful to take China's coast)

 

[Voigt]

In our IHMP mod for a bit more realism we made Chinese war on the one side harder, on the other side a bit easier.

If Japan does Marco Polo and the Chinese United Front fromed, then all warlords become majors, so you need to capitulate them all to get a peaceconference. After that they stop being major, so Japan doesn't get majors in their faction when they puppet them.
Also similar to Spain, China gets a modifier, that even with collaboration their surrender limit doesn't go down. Also we increased their base surrender limit, to I think 95%. This means you need to take all VPs of China, and even most of their non-VP provinces to capitulate them.

China shouldn't go down easily, especially since the benefit is so big with 100% collaberation.

In return after capitulation and the peace conference starting, all the warlord cores are removed and collaberation of China is set as compliance to all Chinese cores occupied by Japan, so also in warlord territory.
Also Japan starts with just the level 3 Marco Polo modifier. So just -30% attack and just needs 3 steps to reduce it fully. So less WS for USA and less PP paid for Japan.

This together with some AI changes to China and the warlords, which means they are producing Infantry with AA guns, but those en masse, makes the fight quite a bit harder, but also more interesting.

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

IDK, I find whole ting rather trivial if you remove your debuff and don't buff China via sliders.

1. Take Tianjin, Beijing and airfield in-between
2. Take this supply hub:

3. Make a landing near Qingdao and take this line (this usually when debuff ends):

4. Take this supply hub:


This traps some 40 divisions. What you do after closing the pocket is pretty much irrelevant: there's even enough time to wardec every neutral all the way up to Egypt, bleed them enough to take their territory in a following peace deal, naval invade Siam (same reason) - all before Ichi Go mission expires (even if it was taken right away). What I found neat is that puppets actually hold the north on their own without supervision now, instead of sending divisions all over the place like a bunch of headless chickens.

I use infantry reduced to 20w with support arty for holding the line/limited offensives (need 2.5-3 armies total), and two motorized divisions where I replace 3 infantry for 3 arty as a main attack force (I train three more of these, but those tend to arrive too late to matter); marines only get support arty added - nothing fancy. Mostly using starter airforce without expanding it (I do build few extra nCAS, but that hardly changes anything) and do bother with moving fleet along the coast as needed. China also has two collaboration missions completed - little point in bothering with campaign otherwise (sure, you can puppet, but can't really use manpower, lest puppet breaks free).

 

[aletoledo]

Ok, I recently have played the start of Japan through 1938 about 6 times, trying to get my feel for the game again and what I seen doesn't seem to match others posts. Just to set the scene, in all my run throughs I focus on industry/research early while building mainly CIVs. I usually have the first 2 infantry items and the first art item research within a few months of the start of the war. and I do put a point into the port in china and 2 in its infra. I do the SCW and get enough Army XP to have templates for 14/4 (no sup art) and 10-0 (with just entrenchment). I usually have at least 2 full armies of six or so 14/4 and the rest 10/0 and then maybe half an army of 12 (with more coming).

In all my playthroughs, with the debuff active, I go nowhere. Can't push up North(though normally I just try to hold there) and I MAY get an amphib invasion off, but its dicey. If I launch first day of war, I am usually successful, but after that, its a slog with many failed attempts..
I also see several people saying the Chinese will attack like mad. Maybe at the Naval invasion sites, but on the northern front they keep sending singe division attacking the central province. Not enough to really gain experience or cut into their supply.

If I wait for the debuff to be mostly gone, then things work smoothly. If anyone has any tips for pushing earlier, I would love to hear them.

When I say the AI attacks like mad, there are limits. If you amass a huge force, then the AI calculates it has no chance and won't attack. This is even more pronounced if you use the expert AI mod. There are two things to get around this: First, don't stack everything on the northern border. You have to leave an inferior force on the front line for the AI to attack. you then feed in troops as needed to stop them from breaking. Second, naval invasions are not only historical, but the easiest way to get the AI to attack. Something in it's algorithm makes it attack against superior odds if it thinks it can encircle and overrun your beachhead.

I'm not quite sure why everyone is in a rush to conquer china. It's the best place to grind your army and gain XP. Sure maybe you're thinking you want to conquer china to get all it's factories and resources, but having level 8 generals and elite troops for use against the allies seems more valuable to me than the factories. Given that you can't boost minors, when I'm done with china, the rest of asia is too easy.