The zipped files are on their way. Glad to help and thanks again for the great work on these beta patches. This game is getting so fun that I couldn't ever go back to vanilla 1.04. If only it was stable! 
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Files received, thanks.Frontenac said:The zipped files are on their way. Glad to help and thanks again for the great work on these beta patches. This game is getting so fun that I couldn't ever go back to vanilla 1.04. If only it was stable!
The truncated autosave is interesting since it seems that unlike most of the other ones I've seen this one actually has a complete province block (closing braces are there) and then truncates right after them. All the other ones I've seen are truncated in the middle of the province block. That would tend to point towards some source of error other than a weird province assignment.
I'll run the oldautosave file under debug a little later today and see what happens.
Cheers.
C.
About the Byzantine events: they seem good, but maybe are they too penalizing for the AI? This brings to another question: the true problem of CK is the AI: those events are fine, but for a human player is relatively easy (I've played on VH/F) to menage to keep the empire toghether; this simply because AI characters don't have a strategy for getting the throne (they don't have any strategy at all), they just rebel randomly and you can defeat them one by one; this can turn the event serie in a annoyance rather than a true challenge.
Also, some events for courtiers getting claims and their own armies, for example when you are fighting somewhere else, could be great. Of course don't know if this is possible to arrange.
About muslims: in my game, Seljuks and Fatimids just imploded and divided into hundreds of independent sheikdoms, so that no problem on easter front for byzantines. Is that a consequence of the gavelkind law? Or just a strange case of my game?
Crusades: they are much better in 1066 scenario then in 1337, simply because muslims can defend themselves; however, all crusades seem successful...
Also, some events for courtiers getting claims and their own armies, for example when you are fighting somewhere else, could be great. Of course don't know if this is possible to arrange.
About muslims: in my game, Seljuks and Fatimids just imploded and divided into hundreds of independent sheikdoms, so that no problem on easter front for byzantines. Is that a consequence of the gavelkind law? Or just a strange case of my game?
Crusades: they are much better in 1066 scenario then in 1337, simply because muslims can defend themselves; however, all crusades seem successful...
I like the fact that the AI now crusades. Egypt is a christian turf in my current game. (I also happen to own Jerusalem, but I'm not counting my crusading since I started it after the Fatimids had their butts kicked the first time).
Byzantine events need to affect more vassals less badly.
Instead of 5 vassals -0.25 have it be 10 vassals -0.15
With the frequency of the events as it is now, that could result in the empire crumbling under the right set of events.
I'm of the belief we should push the events in BYZ until we see the Empire implode within 100 years every time, and then back up and see how we've done. Right now we're going from "BYZ survives every time and is the strongest nation in the game in 1453". So let's slam it hard to the other extreme and try to decide at what point the historically happy point can be reached.
I'd rather have them be TOO nerfed instead of not nerfed enough.
Byzantine events need to affect more vassals less badly.
Instead of 5 vassals -0.25 have it be 10 vassals -0.15
With the frequency of the events as it is now, that could result in the empire crumbling under the right set of events.
I'm of the belief we should push the events in BYZ until we see the Empire implode within 100 years every time, and then back up and see how we've done. Right now we're going from "BYZ survives every time and is the strongest nation in the game in 1453". So let's slam it hard to the other extreme and try to decide at what point the historically happy point can be reached.
I'd rather have them be TOO nerfed instead of not nerfed enough.
Yhea... Egypt was the first to fall in my game too... And to wierd countries... IIRC: Croatia, Scotland, and Sweden were the big crusaders.... France and the HRE did nothing.Duuk said:
That would be nice. Right now it seem to pretty much just create a situation where the other big families get exterminated one at a time... If Diogenes (Or whoever) gets hit by -.25 several times in a row, then he'll rebel, but noone will rebel with him. Easily squished, allowing you to replace him with one of your family members. The Empire becomes even easier to run when all the princes are of your family.Duuk said:
*shrug* Pretty much. Right now it ends up being more annoying then threatening...Duuk said:
As in feb3beta, cultural conversion isnt working I tried to play Byzance with mtth 1 for events id 9007 then i conquered all of the pecheneg and waited 25 years and nothing happened. With mtth 1 all of it should have become greek pretty fast. There is even water connection between Olvia and Byzantium.
check out the code from richvh http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=172862&page=3&pp=25
even with mtth 12000 there is cultural spread with it, it slowly spread but it spread. I think he said that the "same_culture" value is bugged.
I tried to play Byzance with mtth 1 for events id 9007 then i conquered all of the pecheneg and waited 25 years and nothing happened. With mtth 1 all of it should have become greek pretty fast. There is even water connection between Olvia and Byzantium.check out the code from richvh http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=172862&page=3&pp=25
even with mtth 12000 there is cultural spread with it, it slowly spread but it spread. I think he said that the "same_culture" value is bugged.
Amagaeru,
I have tested same_culture and it works correctly.
This event can happen for Byzantion, which is greek and it's realm's ruler is greek. This event cannot happen for Belgrade, which is south_slavic with greek ruler nor can it happen for Hum, which is south_slavic with south_slavic ruler and south_slavic immidiate liege.
Similiar event, but with negating the same_culture condition can happen for Belgrade and Hum, but not Byzantion, as it should.
EDIT: I'd rather say the problem with 9007 is this condition:
As there is no culture called "same_culture", this can never be true.
I have tested same_culture and it works correctly.
Code:
province_event = {
id = 6118
picture = "event_default"
trigger = {
condition = { type = same_culture }
}
mean_time_to_happen = {
days = 1
}
immidiate = {
effect = { type = ruler_prestige value = 1 }
}
}Similiar event, but with negating the same_culture condition can happen for Belgrade and Hum, but not Byzantion, as it should.
EDIT: I'd rather say the problem with 9007 is this condition:
Code:
condition = { type = to condition = { type = ruler_culture value = same_culture } }As there is no culture called "same_culture", this can never be true.
- Craotia the Crusader Kingdom often get themselves annexed by Fatimids. However the latter often implodes, especially the part in the holy land, making cruasdes easier.
- Canarias should be pagan, they were IRL isolated from the rest of the world in this era. They weren't conquerred until 1430's, and that aws by spain. They had nothing to do with the arabs however. Their culture might aswell stay arab, since they're not worth their own.
- I've had a save game problem with last patch, that now seems to have disappeared (good!). Not the auto-save though, I don't use autosave.
- Canarias should be pagan, they were IRL isolated from the rest of the world in this era. They weren't conquerred until 1430's, and that aws by spain. They had nothing to do with the arabs however. Their culture might aswell stay arab, since they're not worth their own.
- I've had a save game problem with last patch, that now seems to have disappeared (good!). Not the auto-save though, I don't use autosave.
Done some games. The muslim events to devide things up seem to be a mixed bag.
In the west, with Iberia, they seem to atleast keep the muslims, mostly Sevilla, from becoming uber powers. Hower the chrisitans never ever want to take advantage of this.
However, in palestine, Egypt and surrounding area they become multitude of 1-province minors made for easy pickings for whomever, especially christians and especally human christians, who want to come along and get virtually free prestige, piety and land.
In the west, with Iberia, they seem to atleast keep the muslims, mostly Sevilla, from becoming uber powers. Hower the chrisitans never ever want to take advantage of this.
However, in palestine, Egypt and surrounding area they become multitude of 1-province minors made for easy pickings for whomever, especially christians and especally human christians, who want to come along and get virtually free prestige, piety and land.
Yep....I will need to play around with a bunch of modifiers that are regionally based to discourage the larger realms in moly land and eastern north africa from breaking up so much. The next patch will continue to address this based on feedback as to what everyone sees happening plus the results I get in hands-off testing.
It is hard to make changes to whether Christian AI takes advantage of weaknesses since I'm not directly coding ai behaviour. Rather, I am using events to simulate/stimulate something that looks like a change to the ai (AI coding is only done by Johan).
It is hard to make changes to whether Christian AI takes advantage of weaknesses since I'm not directly coding ai behaviour. Rather, I am using events to simulate/stimulate something that looks like a change to the ai (AI coding is only done by Johan).
Guinnessmonkey said:
Very good point. I restarted my Vidin/Byzantine game from an earlier, non corrupted save and an observe the same thing. I used to get alliance offers from other (very minor) byzantine dukes for a while, but now most of them have been squashed.
On a positive note, however, the AI emperor changed to inheritance law of the realm to favour his son. I should have sent an assassin when I was the most important vassal and first heir to the throne!
Byakhiam said:
It looks as if you nailed it... Needless to say, I'd really want this to be corrected in some way. Cultural spread, even relatively slow or near impossible across water, is one of the things I enjoy the most in this game.
Jinnai said:
Same thing here. The event works well in Iberia, but Palestine breaks down into one county minors, which is too small. My feeling is that 5-8 county states would be ideal - large enough to be a challenge for conquest and large enough to have the resources for expansion. There should be some state building going on in these areas where central power collapses.
BTW, by 1114 situation is grim in Iberia. The French and English holdings are in retreat while Castille has virtually collapsed, conquered mostly by... err, the Zirid Kingdom.. It must be said that Castille wasted its power in a stupid Caucasus adenture - for a short while the capital of Castille was Baku in Azerbaidjan.
I know that Johan honestly believes that the stupid freedom of movement over religiously hostile land is somehow vital for game balance, but stupid adventures in far away coutries that could have never been reached by any european army whatsoever is a major source of collapse fo countries such as Castille and Croatia - they fall while their armies are fighting in some incredibly remote and unimportant place. Changing the rules for movement would result in an improved behavior of the AI, I think.
Byakhiam said:
If this is changed to type = same_culture would that fix the event?
EDIT: No, but it's a good way to make the game blow up
Last edited:
I'll review and fix the culture event(s) prior to the next patch.
* * * * *
The whole movement issue is one that is a sore point for many but a rather nasty one at this juncture. Granted that the AI doesn't make a lot of rational decisions and that this creates a lot of problems at times, but IMO there is no clear-cut solution that has been proposed that will not result in the situation becoming worse because of the lack of available coding hours to completely revise it. Changing to a negotiated access system - or prohibitiing such movement at a all - would paralize the AI unless it was completely rewritten; and to rewrite all of the basic movement AI, combat AI, add an access negotiation AI, etc. is a rather mammoth undertaking that is beyond the scope of what can be done for CK in the time that Johan will have available.
Frankly, I think it's at a point where the best we could aspire to is some tweaking of modifiers and possible AI nudges. Rewriting core rules without spending the necessary time on the interrelated aspects is more likely to break the game than to fix it.
* * * * *
The whole movement issue is one that is a sore point for many but a rather nasty one at this juncture. Granted that the AI doesn't make a lot of rational decisions and that this creates a lot of problems at times, but IMO there is no clear-cut solution that has been proposed that will not result in the situation becoming worse because of the lack of available coding hours to completely revise it. Changing to a negotiated access system - or prohibitiing such movement at a all - would paralize the AI unless it was completely rewritten; and to rewrite all of the basic movement AI, combat AI, add an access negotiation AI, etc. is a rather mammoth undertaking that is beyond the scope of what can be done for CK in the time that Johan will have available.
Frankly, I think it's at a point where the best we could aspire to is some tweaking of modifiers and possible AI nudges. Rewriting core rules without spending the necessary time on the interrelated aspects is more likely to break the game than to fix it.
Just fired up a 1066 Byzantium game after coming home from Easter(man, have lots happened here while I've been away! ). First thing I notice is that even though Egypt don't expand and the same ruler is in power all the time, the kingdom slowly goes down in flames. Most of the king's vassals becomes independent within the scope of the last years of my Emperor's life span(1066-1072 or something), and all I have to do is to gobble them up one by one. The first crusade was called right after I took Jerusalem, and the objective was Alexandria. As my Catholic neighbours began to attack Egypt, I took them for myself. The result was an almost immidiate end of the crusade. By the time I had taken out Egypt, the Seljuks king's vassals also had broken free. Almost all of them, one by one while I took out Egypt. The odd thing is, it appears that no war is declared at all? Anyway, this can't be the new realm splitting events, since no succession happened(in Egypt at least), can it?
). First thing I notice is that even though Egypt don't expand and the same ruler is in power all the time, the kingdom slowly goes down in flames. Most of the king's vassals becomes independent within the scope of the last years of my Emperor's life span(1066-1072 or something), and all I have to do is to gobble them up one by one. The first crusade was called right after I took Jerusalem, and the objective was Alexandria. As my Catholic neighbours began to attack Egypt, I took them for myself. The result was an almost immidiate end of the crusade. By the time I had taken out Egypt, the Seljuks king's vassals also had broken free. Almost all of them, one by one while I took out Egypt. The odd thing is, it appears that no war is declared at all? Anyway, this can't be the new realm splitting events, since no succession happened(in Egypt at least), can it?On movement:
Would adding some sort of maximum distance condition be too much to ask for? Basically, this would still allow armies to go rampaging over any lands they want, but set restrictions on how far they could go (basically, a sphere of influence)
For example: a king could have a max province distance of 20, so that ANY province that is less than 20 jumps away is reachable by their army. This would be a little more realistic and still allow for the freedom of attack that it seems Johan wants to maintain. This sphere is counted from ANY lands owned by the attacking force or their vassals.
Please note: ALL figures are just for example and NOT to be taken literally!!!
This could also be extended as a scaling modifier based on rank,such as counts having a max distance of 5, duke 10, etc. This would help simulate the larger sphere of influence of higher ranked nobles, and keep those troublesome counts from causing TOO many problems out in the boonies (but still let them attack anyone inside their sphere) . And as another potential addition, possibly even the martial skill could modify this value (a higher skill would allow the army to travel a bit farther, like martial >8 = 1 extra jump, >12 = 2 more jumps, for a max distance of 23 for a king with a high skill marshall, or a max distance of 8 for a count, not as much as a duke, but still an appreciable amount of difference)
I wouldnt think that adding a condition like this should be too much code, as the AI would only be allowed to pick destinations within it's travel limit, and distance is already calculated when a province is selected as a army's target.
Naturally, any crusade target is exempt from this condition, and once a crusade target is taken, that nation's sphere of influence has just extended out from that province, which would make taking those crusade targets a lot more important
Would adding some sort of maximum distance condition be too much to ask for? Basically, this would still allow armies to go rampaging over any lands they want, but set restrictions on how far they could go (basically, a sphere of influence)
For example: a king could have a max province distance of 20, so that ANY province that is less than 20 jumps away is reachable by their army. This would be a little more realistic and still allow for the freedom of attack that it seems Johan wants to maintain. This sphere is counted from ANY lands owned by the attacking force or their vassals.
Please note: ALL figures are just for example and NOT to be taken literally!!!
This could also be extended as a scaling modifier based on rank,such as counts having a max distance of 5, duke 10, etc. This would help simulate the larger sphere of influence of higher ranked nobles, and keep those troublesome counts from causing TOO many problems out in the boonies (but still let them attack anyone inside their sphere) . And as another potential addition, possibly even the martial skill could modify this value (a higher skill would allow the army to travel a bit farther, like martial >8 = 1 extra jump, >12 = 2 more jumps, for a max distance of 23 for a king with a high skill marshall, or a max distance of 8 for a count, not as much as a duke, but still an appreciable amount of difference)
I wouldnt think that adding a condition like this should be too much code, as the AI would only be allowed to pick destinations within it's travel limit, and distance is already calculated when a province is selected as a army's target.
Naturally, any crusade target is exempt from this condition, and once a crusade target is taken, that nation's sphere of influence has just extended out from that province, which would make taking those crusade targets a lot more important
That would be the closest workable solution if you are content with the ai becoming paralized if the target is more than the max_distance away and with the storm of user forum complaints/questions/criticism about "WTF can't I send my army to province X".
If you want the AI to be able to realise that it could achieve its goals by first targetting and capturing stepping_stone_A which will then put it in range, I would guess that this is beyond the scope available to us.
I am also not sure about the AI pathfinding subroutines. If it looks for "fastest route" in a radial pattern (which it might) then it might not "see" a 20-province route as being possible since the radial logic would want it to move through 21 provinces instead. If that has to be recoded then it might be a major task.
I think it's worth my at least asking him about it when he returns.
If you want the AI to be able to realise that it could achieve its goals by first targetting and capturing stepping_stone_A which will then put it in range, I would guess that this is beyond the scope available to us.
I am also not sure about the AI pathfinding subroutines. If it looks for "fastest route" in a radial pattern (which it might) then it might not "see" a 20-province route as being possible since the radial logic would want it to move through 21 provinces instead. If that has to be recoded then it might be a major task.
I think it's worth my at least asking him about it when he returns.