Map Teaser - 20th of May 2015

[TheDungen]

Talking about the "Swedish mainland" and the "Danish peninsula" is completely irrelevant though, because Skåneland was, with Zealand, the heartland of Denmark and not in any sense part of Sweden. You are right about Sweden and Denmark, they don't technically need more provinces, but the Danish ones are way too poor when compared to Sweden (you can't argue that Denmark didn't have by far the largest economy of the Nordic Countries in 1444). I am completely against adding more provinces to Norway and Sweden. They are both wastelands (being Norwegian myself and spending many summer vacations in Sweden, so I know what wastelands they are). Norway and Sweden are extremely overrepresented in this game, and I hope they won't recieve more. Finland could need 1 or MAAYBE 2 provinces and a reshaping of the current ones. Adding an Insular Scandinavian culture would be the only one I would ever consider adding in this region, and even that would be somewhat difficult to justify in 1444, when Norwegian was much closer to current Icelandic. The glorious Danification process was about to start, and by the end of the game, Norway was basically Danish cultured, while Iceland retained its Norwegian one.

I don't argue that denmark was the major power in scandinavia in 1444, But honestly that probably is more due to the sound toll than to population, but they likely had more of that too. And Yes I would have prefered swedish data without skåneland. But I honestly don't think it makes as much a diffrence as the other guy seems to think.
While denmark was the largest economy at the start of the game there needs to be initial conditions that will allow for swedens rise to power as the prominent scandinavian state. Not that that's a problem as the game is right now. Despite what the achievments may claim sweden is currently overpowered. Sweden could actually stand to get nerfed sligtly, or denmark buffed. But not with more provinces and it needs to be done carefully. The new development system is actually perfect for it. denmark will have few but well developed provinces. Menaign that they are powerful but either has to get more provinces or spand a lot on upgradign provinces that are already fairly upgraded (I'm guessing the upgrades will be more expensive the more you have) while sweden will have more provinces but with lower development giving them more scope to develop and eventually eclipse denmark.
Well if Norwegian only exists in iceland it's not really norwegian is it? At least icelandic should be in the tag creator. And I disagree that insular cultures are that off, the whole standardised language and culture really gains momentum with reformation, when the churches are used as a means of pushing the doctrine. At least that's the case in sweden. In denmark I really don't know.

 

[raikaria]

I really hope next (last?) map teaser will be about British Isles

They already confirmed Britian is out of the scope for map changes this updaqte. They're getting the Parliament.

 

[Keanon]

Everything in the past is an estimate. And if it's only the modern borders then it's even more true. We were talking about how the provinces in sweden and denmark were to be structured and then it's is beyond doubt that the population of the provinces of the swedish mainland eclipses the ones on the danish peninsula in this era. If you want to bring in the colonies then you should aks for more provinces in those, not in denmark. Denmark and Sweden are fine. In fact if there's nordic countries that could use provinces it's norway and finland not denmark or sweden.
And there is a population boom, since the same land is counted all the time in the swedish one you can litteraly see the population boom. And it's not so strange sweden simply had more lebensraum than denmark.

Also for all that it was populous sweden actually moved people into skåneland post conquest, as means of cementing their hold on the land. the residential capital of Blekinge, Karlskrona (incidently where I grew up) was founded almost exclusivly by swedes moved in from other parts of sweden (mainly finland and the balt states). And in the 1700s that was the third largest city in the entire kingdom (after stockholm and riga).

Also the scandinavias needs more cultures. Icelandic, Dalish (from Dalarna) and Scanian (is actually not a mix of danish and swedish but a remenant of a language of it's own). Preferly with revolter tags.

The simple argument is that Sweden wouldn't eclipse the population of Denmark, if not for the fact that Sweden conquered a lot of land, and Denmark lost about just as much. And due to this, your argument that Denmark couldn't stand to be better represented, doesn't hold any water, because you're drawing the conclusion based on numbers from post conquest. Denmark and Sweden prior to any land changing hand, had about the same population, with Denmark having a more urban and rich population and Sweden having a more rural and poor one.

So again; Denmark could stand to have the same amount of provinces as Sweden, Denmark counted with Scania, Sweden counted without Finland. That's 1 more province, and it really should be Sjælland split in two. Now, are you gonna move the goalposts once more, or do you still hold that Sweden magically had more people because of Wikipedia? As for cultures, if they're not adding Slovak or Slovene them adding anything more for Scandinavia would be embarrassing.

 

[Vityviktor]

Rioja should produce wine. With a boost in army morale and stability.

 

[Me_]

I just noticed something: Tataouine. I was wondering why you made the island of Djerba a separate province. Now I know.

 

[TheDungen]

The simple argument is that Sweden wouldn't eclipse the population of Denmark, if not for the fact that Sweden conquered a lot of land, and Denmark lost about just as much. And due to this, your argument that Denmark couldn't stand to be better represented, doesn't hold any water, because you're drawing the conclusion based on numbers from post conquest. Denmark and Sweden prior to any land changing hand, had about the same population, with Denmark having a more urban and rich population and Sweden having a more rural and poor one.

So again; Denmark could stand to have the same amount of provinces as Sweden, Denmark counted with Scania, Sweden counted without Finland. That's 1 more province, and it really should be Sjælland split in two. Now, are you gonna move the goalposts once more, or do you still hold that Sweden magically had more people because of Wikipedia? As for cultures, if they're not adding Slovak or Slovene them adding anything more for Scandinavia would be embarrassing.

I have a soruce albeit not a great one and you have absolutly nothing. But hey go on wishing for more provinces in denmark. it wont happen.

As for cultures just because one place is under represented doesn't mean other should be. With the cultural resolution recently added to germany and italy any country should be able to ask for the same. Granted for scandinavia that is a lot fewer cultures than for italy and germany because the scandinavian kingdoms have been united for a lot longer in 1444. Then again infrastructure and cultural policy is virtually non existant during the first half millenia of the scandinavian kingdoms.
We can however not allow the fact that italy and germnay would remain as separate kingdoms for longer beyond 1444 to colour our conception of the scandinavian countries as culturally homogenous.
Just because sweden and denmark had cultural unity two hundred years before these others don't in any way mean they were any closer to it in 1444 (though they likely were a little closer).

 

[jrgen3]

As for cultures just because one place is under represented doesn't mean other should be. With the cultural resolution recently added to germany and italy any country should be able to ask for the same. Granted for scandinavia that is a lot fewer cultures than for italy and germany because the scandinavian kingdoms have been united for a lot longer in 1444. Then again infrastructure and cultural policy is virtually non existant during the first half millenia of the scandinavian kingdoms.
We can however not allow the fact that italy and germnay would remain as separate kingdoms for longer beyond 1444 to colour our conception of the scandinavian countries as culturally homogenous.
Just because sweden and denmark had cultural unity two hundred years before these others don't in any way mean they were any closer to it in 1444 (though they likely were a little closer).

The difference between Hungarian and Slovak and Austrian and Slovene is greater than the Scandinavian region has ever been. The devs don't want small irrelevant cultures, and new cultures in Scandinavia would basically be the definition of irrelevant. Sure, they were not perfectly culturally equal, but still far more so than e.g. Hungarian vs Slovak.

 

[Keanon]

I have a soruce albeit not a great one and you have absolutly nothing. But hey go on wishing for more provinces in denmark. it wont happen.

As for cultures just because one place is under represented doesn't mean other should be. With the cultural resolution recently added to germany and italy any country should be able to ask for the same. Granted for scandinavia that is a lot fewer cultures than for italy and germany because the scandinavian kingdoms have been united for a lot longer in 1444. Then again infrastructure and cultural policy is virtually non existant during the first half millenia of the scandinavian kingdoms.
We can however not allow the fact that italy and germnay would remain as separate kingdoms for longer beyond 1444 to colour our conception of the scandinavian countries as culturally homogenous.
Just because sweden and denmark had cultural unity two hundred years before these others don't in any way mean they were any closer to it in 1444 (though they likely were a little closer).

I used your own source to argue my point and you dismiss it on the basis of it being your source? I give up, you cannot be reasoned with.

 

[Demetrios]

The difference between Hungarian and Slovak and Austrian and Slovene is greater than the Scandinavian region has ever been. The devs don't want small irrelevant cultures, and new cultures in Scandinavia would basically be the definition of irrelevant. Sure, they were not perfectly culturally equal, but still far more so than e.g. Hungarian vs Slovak.

I would say the difference between Finnish and the rest of Scandinavian cultures would be far more than Austrian and Slovene, and at least equivalent to Hungarian an Slovak (Hungarian and Finnish being Uralic languages and not Indo-European after all)...

 

[Homusubi]

Please add San Marino

You forgot Liechtenstein... which was a HRE minor in the EUIV time period AFAIK. Graubunden is currently massive (by European standards), so it makes sense...

Also, does this mean a buff for Provence and Aragon? I am strongly in favour of both!

P.S. And the first post was a (probable) Balkan nationalist. Can I call it Homusubi's Law?

 

[eddyr]

redraw the British Isles.. give it... well.. some isles

 

[leadshooter69]

You forgot Liechtenstein... which was a HRE minor in the EUIV time period AFAIK. Graubunden is currently massive (by European standards), so it makes sense...

It would be a tiny unclickable province, it didn't get imperial immediacy until 1719, and its rulers didn't even visit it until 1818. Split the province maybe but adding Liechtenstein would be silly IMHO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Liechtenstein

 

[jrgen3]

I would say the difference between Finnish and the rest of Scandinavian cultures would be far more than Austrian and Slovene, and at least equivalent to Hungarian an Slovak (Hungarian and Finnish being Uralic languages and not Indo-European after all)...

I said Scandinavian, not Nordic, which specifically excludes Finland. It still is not as simple though, as Finland was under Swedish rule for 800 years and has a lot in common with the other Nordic countries, so I'd guess they are about as similar as Austrian and Slovene. The language part is not really that important though, as Hungarian too is in a completely different language group from Slovak, and Slovene and German are about as mutually intelligible as Swedish and Finnish (except that Swedish is taught at Finnish schools I think).
My comment was more pointed at the culture within the present day borders of Sweden, Norway and Denmark. The difference is not that big, and I can't see any cultures I would split off from Norwegian for example, with the Sami in the far north in 1444 being the only exception. Today they are a minority there (only a few municipalities with about 2.9k, 2.7k, 4k, 2.9k, 900 and 2.2k have a Sami majority. Not sure if this is ethnic Sami or Sami speaking (only about half the Sami population can speak and/or write Sami)).

 

[Homusubi]

redraw the British Isles.. give it... well.. some isles

Shetland, Orkney, and the Outer Hebrides are already separate provinces. The others are too small to be proper provinces... Mann maybe, but Scilly?

That being said, I wouldn't say no to Britain getting more provinces. It might actually convince me to play in my home country for once instead of halfway round the world.

Re Liechtenstein, I've read the Wikipedia article. How about creating a "Vorarlberg" province between Graubunden and Tirol, and then making it a Vorarlberg OPM until 1780 and then giving it to Liechtenstein?

 

[jrgen3]

Shetland, Orkney, and the Outer Hebrides are already separate provinces. The others are too small to be proper provinces... Mann maybe, but Scilly?

That being said, I wouldn't say no to Britain getting more provinces. It might actually convince me to play in my home country for once instead of halfway round the world.

Re Liechtenstein, I've read the Wikipedia article. How about creating a "Vorarlberg" province between Graubunden and Tirol, and then making it a Vorarlberg OPM until 1780 and then giving it to Liechtenstein?

Liechtenstein is a joke. I would vote for a Vorarlberg province, but it should be given to the counts of Montfort and later go to Austria.

 

[Homusubi]

Liechtenstein is a joke. I would vote for a Vorarlberg province, but it should be given to the counts of Montfort and later go to Austria.

Well, my proposition involves a Vorarlberg OPM controlling the province for most of its history, which refers to the Montforts, so at least we agree on that.

 

[jrgen3]

Well, my proposition involves a Vorarlberg OPM controlling the province for most of its history, which refers to the Montforts, so at least we agree on that.

Liechtenstein is extremely small, with only a fraction of the area of Ulm, and Ulm had a much higher population in 1500 than Liechtenstein has today.

 

[Homusubi]

Liechtenstein is extremely small, with only a fraction of the area of Ulm, and Ulm had a much higher population in 1500 than Liechtenstein has today.

When did I say anything about Ulm being smaller?

 

[jrgen3]

When did I say anything about Ulm being smaller?

You didn't. I compared Liechtenstein with what many consider to be a fairly unimportant country and province and Liechtenstein couldn't even beat that. I can name at least 50 countries in the HRE not currently in the game that are more important than Liechtenstein.

 

[TheDungen]

The difference between Hungarian and Slovak and Austrian and Slovene is greater than the Scandinavian region has ever been. The devs don't want small irrelevant cultures, and new cultures in Scandinavia would basically be the definition of irrelevant. Sure, they were not perfectly culturally equal, but still far more so than e.g. Hungarian vs Slovak.

The diffence between some of the italian cultures and the german cultures are also smaller than that of those cultures.A cultre should serve a purpose and in this case that purpose would be to give the nordics something else to concentrate on than blobbing. Though granted high LA would perhaps be an easier solution.