Lambert Simnel

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Is there going to be room for another province in southern Greece so that the Principality of Achaia can be included in the game:
 

chegitz guevara

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Sandolfon said:
I do realise you're against Dubrovnik, but (1) it already exists and has both tag and province (albeit an inaccurate one) dedicated to it (2) it could be made into a viable rival for Venice. Do you wish to get rid of the nation and/or prevent a possible province?

It's not that I'm against Ragusa. It's that I see no real purpose for it vis a vis the game itself. For the same reason that San Marino, Benevenuto, Avignon, Andorra, etc. don't really belong in the game. The fact that something was there, I don't think is sufficient to be in the game. Consider Avignon. If the Ottomans took Rome (which they probably could have done had Beyezid II been so inclined), where do you think the Pope would have ended up?

I don't see how it could be modeled correctly, even with an extremely peaceful ai. I understand the desire for it available to play. But the havoc it reaks in the region means that it is extremely destablizing influence, when historically, it was just the opposite.

The game isn't about culture, and while it is about diplomacy, Ragusa's diplomacy during the game was mainly around being submissive to whomever the big power in the Balkans was, rather than building great coalitions ala Austria or the Italian cities. Unlike the Byzantines, they didn't plot against their protector's either.

Ragusa had exclusive trading rights in large parts of the Ottoman Europe, but other than giving them a CoT, and throwing in an event every ten years to add +400 to relations to the Ottomans, making them vassals, and forcing them to give a chunk of money to the Ottomans ever so often, I don't see a way of making them act historically. And all that would do is make them a target for the great powers, which they never really were.

The fact is, these maps can only be used with any of the more extensive mods, because someone, or rather several someone's, are going to have to go through and rewite events, province.csv's, country csv's, etc. It's not just a simple map mod. As long as you're doing that, why not use the territory to model something more significant politically and militarily, such as Cattaro, from wich the Venetians projected some of their power into the region, and which withstood an Ottoman army (unlike Durres).
 

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Hive said:
Lesbos will still be a part of the province, since I think it needs all 3 for size purposes.
I definitely agree. I wasn't arguing for any graphical change, and Lesbos was in the Chios theme.
Lambert Simnel said:
Is there going to be room for another province in southern Greece so that the Principality of Achaia can be included in the game:
I think the best that can be done here is to put the Principality in Morea. The Pelopponesus is too small to be split. It would be nice to see a split Pelopponesus in, for example, the MES however.

Re: Ragusa
Is it possible to 'lobotomise' as it were an AI so that they don't do anything at all? I.e. they just build improvements, but never declare war or join alliances? I fear it is not, or I'm sure someone would have come up with this already.
 

unmerged(27913)

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Comparing Ragusa with San Marino and Anodrra?!?! I mean really... :rofl:

Btw. I don't think you people understand what this game is about. This game is not history lesson but a simulation of history. So while it may simulate the history it doesn't mean that it needs to work out excatly as it did in the game.

Let supose that Ragusa didn't had that terrible earthquake and that it continued developing militarily and rivaled Venice ultimately taking over the primate in the Adriatic.

There are numerous variations that could have happened and this game is all about those variations happening.
 

Abdul Goatherd

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Finellach said:
Comparing Ragusa with San Marino and Anodrra?!?! I mean really... :rofl:

Btw. I don't think you people understand what this game is about. This game is not history lesson but a simulation of history. So while it may simulate the history it doesn't mean that it needs to work out excatly as it did in the game.

Let supose that Ragusa didn't had that terrible earthquake and that it continued developing militarily and rivaled Venice ultimately taking over the primate in the Adriatic.

There are numerous variations that could have happened and this game is all about those variations happening.

Very doubtful. In the concurrent time period, Venice wasn't just a large rival power in the Adriatic. It was arguably the richest, most advanced & powerful state in Europe.

Ragusa existed because of the stalemate between the Turk & the Venetian. It continued by their grace. One gesture of independent political movement and it would have been immediately swatted down by one or the other.

And it would have been particularly easy because, from what I understand, Ragusa had no army and no navy. :)

Nor, and here I may rustle a few bristles, was it really commercially significant either. It was successful enough to survive, but it wasn't a first-tier commercial city, perhaps not even second-tier. It's not Andorra. But it wasn't quite Lucca either.

Don't get me wrong. I think Dubrovnik is a beautiful & awesome city (I visited it before the war -- lots of Venetian lions everywhere ;) ). But it was not a significant power. Do you think the Venetians would have let it live had it been? ;)

EDIT: I am not coming down definitely on the side that it shouldn't be included. Just pointing out that the alternative history argument is really a bit of a stretch in Ragusa's case. Sort of like defending the inclusion of a Costa Rica in the hope that it will rise to rival the United States. :)
 
Last edited:

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Abdul Goatherd said:
Very doubtful. In the concurrent time period, Venice wasn't just a large rival power in the Adriatic. It was arguably the richest, most advanced & powerful state in Europe.

Thanks to the fact Croatia faced its decline in internal strifes and later by difficulties with Ottomans.
Venice basically took the best out of situation.

What if the situation developed differently?

Ragusa existed because of the stalemate between the Turk & the Venetian. It continued by their grace. One gesture of independent political movement and it would have been immediately swatted down by one or the other.

As I said what if it gone the other way? ;)

And it would have been particularly easy because, from what I understand, Ragusa had no army and no navy. :)

They had merhchant fleet which also played as their defensive naval force. On the ground no, they didnt had any substantial forces, they used similar tactics to Venice - they built fortresses and fortified themselves.

Nor, and here I may rustle a few bristles, was it really commercially significant either. It was successful enough to survive, but it wasn't a first-tier commercial city, perhaps not even second-tier. It's not Andorra. But it wasn't quite Lucca either.

Ragusa was not just one city, it held the whole strip of coast there. Look at the modern map of Croatia, Republic of Ragusa is still there. ;)

Don't get me wrong. I think Dubrovnik is a beautiful & awesome city (I visited it before the war -- lots of Venetian lions everywhere ;) ). But it was not a significant power. Do you think the Venetians would have let it live had it been? ;)

Dubrovnik is still a beautiful city...maybe more than ever.
Btw. Venice did do somethign, Ragusa was their vassal for years....with some luck and different circumstances it could have been easily the other way around.

[/QUOTE]EDIT: I am not coming down definitely on the side that it shouldn't be included. Just pointing out that the alternative history argument is really a bit of a stretch in Ragusa's case. Sort of like defending the inclusion of a Costa Rica in the hope that it will rise to rival the United States. :)[/QUOTE]

Acutally not quite good comparison. Ragusa started as much richer city with much better cards so to say, it was the later circumstances that destoryed them and gave Venice the upper hand.
 

chegitz guevara

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Finellach said:
Comparing Ragusa with San Marino and Anodrra?!?! I mean really... :rofl:

For all the actual effect they had on history, the comparison's valid.

Finellach said:
Btw. I don't think you people understand what this game is about. This game is not history lesson but a simulation of history. So while it may simulate the history it doesn't mean that it needs to work out excatly as it did in the game.

I've been modding this game for more than three years, so I think I have a pretty good idea.

Finellach said:
Let supose that Ragusa didn't had that terrible earthquake and that it continued developing militarily and rivaled Venice ultimately taking over the primate in the Adriatic.

Then build a fantasy scenario around Ragusa. The fact is, had the earthquake not happened, Ragusa would have continued to be what it was, the Balkan traders of the Ottoman empire. They had independence in name only. It wasn't forts that defended them. The mightiest forts in the world were nothing to the Turks. Ragusa existed as an independent state because the Turks wanted them independent, because that was the only way Turkish goods could be sold in Europe, as the Christian countries barely allowed Muslims to trade there. Ragusa played no one off against anyone else. They just attached themselves to whomever appeared to be winning in the Balkans at the moment.

Finellach said:
There are numerous variations that could have happened and this game is all about those variations happening.

But we don't model the game on those except as option B. We model the game on what did happen.
 

Abdul Goatherd

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Finellach said:
As I said what if it gone the other way? ;)

Not a chance. The 15th C. was Venice's prime. With Genoa defeated at Chioggia, she had already moved from superpower to hyperpower. Forget Croatia. Venice had already proven herself able to fight off the best armies of Europe combined several times over and she would prove it again and again.

I love Dubrovnik and I hate myself for putting her down like this. But there simply was no other way. The difference was far too steep to be overcome. If this was the 10th C., perhaps (even though the differences were already evident). But not in 1419, no. Even if Venice could be knocked off her perch by a hundred earthquakes (it would take at least that many :) ), there were plenty of other better-placed candidates -- from Genoa to Lucca to Florence -- ready to jump in to replace her, well ahead of Ragusa.

It is like setting Costa Rica against the US. Or, at my most generous, Cuba (minus its army) vs. US. :)
 

Hive

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Abdul Goatherd said:
Not a chance. The 15th C. was Venice's prime. With Genoa defeated at Chioggia, she had already moved from superpower to hyperpower. Forget Croatia. Venice had already proven herself able to fight off the best armies of Europe combined several times over and she would prove it again and again.

I love Dubrovnik and I hate myself for putting her down like this. But there simply was no other way. The difference was far too steep to be overcome. If this was the 10th C., perhaps (even though the differences were already evident). But not in 1419, no. Even if Venice could be knocked off her perch by a hundred earthquakes (it would take at least that many :) ), there were plenty of other better-placed candidates -- from Genoa to Lucca to Florence -- ready to jump in to replace her, well ahead of Ragusa.

It is like setting Costa Rica against the US. Or, at my most generous, Cuba (minus its army) vs. US. :)

I must agree with this. Comparing Ragusa to Venice is off. And I strongly feel that Venice is underpowered in vanilla EU2, speaking of which.

We are, after all, talking about a nation who required a coalition consisting of Austria, Spain, France, Papal States, Florence, etc to stop - and they didn't even manage to take any significant land from Venice (mainly due to really clever diplomacy combined with some brilliant naval usage), they only managed to *stop* Venice from expanding more...

Anyway, whether or not you want Ragusa to be independent I still don't see a big problem with having a Ragusa province. You can just give it to Venice or OE in your scenarios, depending on the scenario start.
 

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Latest version:

post-25-1108209902.jpg


Comments?

Oh, and I know I forgot to name Ragusa... :eek:o

Next up: Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania. I'm not sure quite what to do here, any suggestions are welcome...
 

bombshellboi

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Hive said:
Latest version:

post-25-1108209902.jpg


Comments?

Oh, and I know I forgot to name Ragusa... :eek:o

Next up: Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania. I'm not sure quite what to do here, any suggestions are welcome...

This looks much better than earlier versions.

However Istria and Ragusa/Dubrovnik are rather small, would they be clickable? Take into consideration city icon, unit icon, manufactory icon...I fink they r a bit small and would look crowded.

Maybe enlarging Istria and Ragusa at the expense of neighbouring provinces would be better?
 

Kaigon

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angelscotboi said:
This looks much better than earlier versions.

However Istria and Ragusa/Dubrovnik are rather small, would they be clickable? Take into consideration city icon, unit icon, manufactory icon...I fink they r a bit small and would look crowded.

Maybe enlarging Istria and Ragusa at the expense of neighbouring provinces would be better?
No need to worry, both provinces are about the same size as Rhodes, then look at Corfu...
 

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angelscotboi said:
This looks much better than earlier versions.

However Istria and Ragusa/Dubrovnik are rather small, would they be clickable? Take into consideration city icon, unit icon, manufactory icon...I fink they r a bit small and would look crowded.

Maybe enlarging Istria and Ragusa at the expense of neighbouring provinces would be better?

dubrovnik4cc.jpg

I see no problems in clickability with current ragusa size, actually i believe the new ragusa is bigger than the one featuring in the image i have made.
 

chegitz guevara

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angelscotboi said:
However Istria and Ragusa/Dubrovnik are rather small, would they be clickable? Take into consideration city icon, unit icon, manufactory icon...I fink they r a bit small and would look crowded.

They're both bigger than Rhodes, and since neither is an island, it should be easier to select armies.

Ragusa could easily be made into Cattaro on this map, too. Venice could use help of a territory that no other country has a core on.
 

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Hive said:
Latest version:

Comments?
The following applies only to the area south and east of Kosovo. I do not know much about the rest in this period.

Me like! Me like! :D

On an aesthetic note, perhaps the 'lump' sticking out of Salonica could have the three sticky-out bits added? As it is it hurts my pedantic little eyes slightly :)

Apologies for the rudimentary vocabulary above. I am currently as close to being jet-lagged as one can be without having been on an aeroplane.