Hive

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chegitz guevara said:
For the first map of the Balkans, I suggest using Cattaro instead of Durres. Durres fell to the Ottomans, Cattaro never did, so the Venetians will have a slightly easier time holding on to it.

For "west Thrace," how about Edirne? It wasn't Macedonia, and it's nice and short. It should reach to the Dardenelles, btw.

Instead of Lesbos (which would be a Byzantine possession) make it Chios, a Genoese possession, and one which fell much later to the Ottomans.

Exactly which maps are you talking about now? :D

I don't like Edirne, as that's the Turkish name - a name that weren't used back then, IIRC.

Are you sure the Genovese didn't hold Lesbos? I was certain they did...

And Chios is a less cool name. :p
 
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Abdul Goatherd

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Hive said:
Are you sure the Genovese didn't hold Lesbos? I was certain they did...

And Chios is a less cool name. :p

Chios was taken first (1346) & remained in Genoese hands longer (they lost it only in 1566).

Lesbos (Mytilene) was given to the Genoese in 1355, but they lost it to the Turks by 1462.

Since they're unlikely to hold it for very long, you might as well call it Lesbos. :D

(P.S. - The third big island there, Lemnos, was in Venetian hands until 1478.)
 

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Abdul Goatherd said:
Chios was taken first (1346) & remained in Genoese hands longer (they lost it only in 1566).

Lesbos (Mytilene) was given to the Genoese in 1355, but they lost it to the Turks by 1462.

Since they're unlikely to hold it for very long, you might as well call it Lesbos. :D

(P.S. - The third big island there, Lemnos, was in Venetian hands until 1478.)

It's just that Chios is the smallest of the 3 islands IIRC - and since this province represents all 3 of them anyway...

If only they had a cool name as a group I could use, like 'The Cyclades' or 'Ionian Islands'... though both of them are quite long anyway...
 

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chegitz guevara said:
For the first map of the Balkans, I suggest using Cattaro instead of Durres. Durres fell to the Ottomans, Cattaro never did, so the Venetians will have a slightly easier time holding on to it.

For "west Thrace," how about Edirne? It wasn't Macedonia, and it's nice and short. It should reach to the Dardenelles, btw.

Instead of Lesbos (which would be a Byzantine possession) make it Chios, a Genoese possession, and one which fell much later to the Ottomans.

You probably know my objections to Ragusa, but I'll restate them. With the exception of the Napolianic wars, Ragusa played viturally no part politically or militarily in the game. It was, for a brief period of the game, a vassal of Hungary, and after the fall of Constantinople, a vassal of the Turks. For all intents and puporses, it was part of the Ottoman empire, who allowed them some local sovreignty in exchange for carrying out trade in the Balkans and Ottoman protection from Venice. It will never lead to any historical results, as it will join alliances, get into wars, hate the Ottomans, and all sorts of things Ragusa never did. It makes about as much sense to include them as it does to include Andorra.
So should we annihilate Georgia, Moldavia, Byzantium, and Wallachia as well? By your reasoning, one would think "yes" as they already behave "ahistorically." Dubrovnik WAS an important seaport on the Adriatic--with better modifications to the Balkan region, she would become quite interesting to play. I do agree that Chios better represents the islands, despite Lesbos' cool name :p .
 

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chegitz guevara Cattaro or Kotor was far to the west from Dyrrachion and it is in Montenegro. Making Cattaro and Dyrrachion one province is idiotic.

Btw. I have one suggestion. Why don't you make whole this region(Croatia, Bosnia, Albania, Romania, Hungary, Poland, Caucaus, half of Russia plus Ukraine) one huge blob...I mean who needs provinces here...they didn't had any STRATEGICALLY SIGNIGFICANT role anyway....
 

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chegitz guevara said:
For "west Thrace," how about Edirne? It wasn't Macedonia, and it's nice and short. It should reach to the Dardenelles, btw.
Well, not geographically, no, but 'west Thrace' is where Macedonia (the Byzantine theme) was. And since we will probably have the names of other themes as province names in the area (Hellas, Thessalonika/Salonica, Thrace) this would maintain the 'theme' theme :)p).

This is also an argument in favour of renaming Lesbos 'Chios' as that is what the theme encompassing these islands was called. Given that the Byzantine Empire will own the Lesbos province in your 1337 scenario, Hive, and as Abdul Goatherd pointed out Chios remained in Genoa's possession the longest of the islands, I think naming the province Chios is appropriate.
 

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Finellach said:
chegitz guevara Cattaro or Kotor was far to the west from Dyrrachion and it is in Montenegro. Making Cattaro and Dyrrachion one province is idiotic.

Btw. I have one suggestion. Why don't you make whole this region(Croatia, Bosnia, Albania, Romania, Hungary, Poland, Caucaus, half of Russia plus Ukraine) one huge blob...I mean who needs provinces here...they didn't had any STRATEGICALLY SIGNIGFICANT role anyway....

Dude, calm down. You can agree with him or not, but he's entitled to his opinion.

Underhand said:
This is also an argument in favour of renaming Lesbos 'Chios' as that is what the theme encompassing these islands was called. Given that the Byzantine Empire will own the Lesbos province in your 1337 scenario, Hive, and as Abdul Goatherd pointed out Chios remained in Genoa's possession the longest of the islands, I think naming the province Chios is appropriate.

Very well then, I give in... :p

But Lesbos will still be a part of the province, since I think it needs all 3 for size purposes.
 

chegitz guevara

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Finellach said:
chegitz guevara Cattaro or Kotor was far to the west from Dyrrachion and it is in Montenegro. Making Cattaro and Dyrrachion one province is idiotic.

Btw. I have one suggestion. Why don't you make whole this region(Croatia, Bosnia, Albania, Romania, Hungary, Poland, Caucaus, half of Russia plus Ukraine) one huge blob...I mean who needs provinces here...they didn't had any STRATEGICALLY SIGNIGFICANT role anyway....

Have I insulted you even once? I treat you and your comments with respect and I demand the same in return. We are all working towards the same goal, even if we disagree. If you find it simply impossible to speak to me without insulting me, then I highly suggest you do not do so at all, because the next time you insult me, I'm reporting you to the moderators, who take an exceptionally dim view of such behavior. It's up to you whether or not you wish to apologize for your behavior. Now, when you can address me civilly, I will respond to your "criticisms."

Sandolfon said:
So should we annihilate Georgia, Moldavia, Byzantium, and Wallachia as well? By your reasoning, one would think "yes" as they already behave "ahistorically." Dubrovnik WAS an important seaport on the Adriatic--with better modifications to the Balkan region, she would become quite interesting to play.

Georgia, Moldavia, Byzantium, and Wallachia, all unlike Ragusa, engaged in wars, conducted diplomacy, had civil wars, revolts, religious problems, and affected the history of their neighbors. They were also all fought over, repeatedly. Furthermore, through events, we can mostly get those states to behave historically, at least some of the time.

None of that is true of Ragusa. All Ragusa was, was a trading center, and while it was exceptionally important for the Ottomans and the Balkans for those purposes, it doesn't merit seperate existence as a country in EU2.

I'm not the only person who thinks that Ragusa should be removed from the game. It was removed in the AGCEEP. Ragusa never acts historically. It is simply impossible to get it to do so. To act historically, Ragusa should do nothing, for the whole game.

It's not a matter of a player not acting historically. Obviously players don't do so with any country. It's a matter of the ai doing so. We're all striving towards a game that acts more in line with what happened historically. If we weren't, what's the point of fixing the map? But Ragusa is one of those places that just doesn't work, ever.
 
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chegitz guevara

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Hive said:
Very well then, I give in... :p

But Lesbos will still be a part of the province, since I think it needs all 3 for size purposes.

I think that's a good idea.

On the Euratlas map, Euboea was part of the Duchy of Athens. I don't know how accurate that is. Perhaps add a few small islands to Rhodes (the Dodecanese) for asthetic reasons, and add the Cyclades to the SE of Athens as a province.
 

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I haven't insulted anyone.

As I said the best thing would be to make Croatia and whole Balkans all the way to Baltic and to the east to Caucaus one big white blob....I mean nothing really significant happend there...right?
 

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Hive said:
It's just that Chios is the smallest of the 3 islands IIRC - and since this province represents all 3 of them anyway...

If only they had a cool name as a group I could use, like 'The Cyclades' or 'Ionian Islands'... though both of them are quite long anyway...

IIRC, they're officially called . . . *drumroll* . . . "the Aegean islands".

(No, not "north Aegean", but "Aegean". After all, a little south of Chios, Aegean sea ends and Ionian sea begins, isn't it?)

Here's is pretty map of the island groups:

greekmap.gif
 

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Abdul Goatherd said:
IIRC, they're officially called . . . *drumroll* . . . "the Aegean islands".

(No, not "north Aegean", but "Aegean". After all, a little south of Chios, Aegean sea ends and Ionian sea begins, isn't it?)

According to Wikipedia, they are the North Aegean Islands.... and I refuse to use something like that.
 

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Finellach said:
I haven't insulted anyone.

Two mods, Hive, and I disagree. The other thead wasn't closed just because of Josip.

As I said the best thing would be to make Croatia and whole Balkans all the way to Baltic and to the east to Caucaus one big white blob....I mean nothing really significant happend there...right?

Okay, explain why Ragusa should be included, without making reference to its being an important CoT. What events happened there? In which wars did they take part? In which alliances were they take part? In what diplomacy did they engage? How did they effect the course of history? What did Ragusa do that is so important it has to be in the game?
 

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chegitz guevara said:
Two mods, Hive, and I disagree.

Disagree on what? Tell me excatly where have I insulted you and I mean where have I personally and deliberately insulted YOU?

The other thead wasn't closed just because of Josip.

No it was closed because of the flame which some certain people instigated.


Okay, explain why Ragusa should be included, without making reference to its being an important CoT. What events happened there? In which wars did they take part? In which alliances were they take part? In what diplomacy did they engage? How did they effect the course of history? What did Ragusa do that is so important it has to be in the game?

Ragusa was there and it was important state.
I already explained it numerous time...need I repeat myself again?!
 

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Finellach said:
Disagree on what? Tell me excatly where have I insulted you and I mean where have I personally and deliberately insulted YOU?

You called me ignorant, among other things.

No it was closed because of the flame which some certain people instigated.

The only people flaming were you and Josip.

Ragusa was there and it was important state.
I already explained it numerous time...need I repeat myself again?!

That's all you've ever said. You've never backed your asertion with anything more that, 'it was important for trade!!!!.' Why was it an important state?
 

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chegitz guevara said:
You called me ignorant, among other things.

Where was that? In some alternative reality? :rofl:

The only people flaming were you and Josip.

Incorrect. I was posting maps while you and others were flaming the thread.
It was me in first place who asked for intervention from a mod....I asked for this thread to be closed too because you people are flaming it with totally unrelated stuff.

That's all you've ever said. You've never backed your asertion with anything more that, 'it was important for trade!!!!.' Why was it an important state?

It was important because it existed.
If this was a question of some other Italian or god knows what forbidden rock in the Mediterranean this wouldn't even be "discussed".
 

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Finellach said:
Disagree on what? Tell me excatly where have I insulted you and I mean where have I personally and deliberately insulted YOU?

You called his suggestion 'idiotic', which I find fairly insulting.

Anyway, I still think Ragusa is too important to be left out. If people don't want to see them fighting wars and such, they can just give them an extremely peaceful AI file.
 

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Let's try and work through this Dubrovnik connundrum, shall we?
I've just done a quick Google search on the Republic, and I shall presently quote a passage from Wikipedia:

"Having been granted complete self-government, bound only to pay a tribute to the king [of Hungary?] and provide assistance with its fleet, Dubrovnik started its life as a free state. The Ragusan Republic reached its peak in the 15th and 16th centuries, when the Dubrovnik thalassocracy rivalled Venice Most Serene Republic and other Italian maritime republics.

Supported by its wealth and skilled diplomacy, the Latin/Slavic Ragusa/Dubrovnik achieved a remarkable level of development during the 15th and 16th century. After 1492, the city received a group of Sephardim expelled from Spain and Portugal. They used their contacts with other Sephardim in the Turkish Empire and Europe for commercial benefit...

In 1526 Dubrovnik acknowledged the supremacy of the Turkish Sultan (annual tribute was paid to the Sultan). A crisis of Mediterranean shipping and especially a catastrophic earthquake...ruined the well-being of the Republic. With great effort the Republic recovered a bit, but still remained a shadow of the former Republic."

I can certainly see your point, chegitz guevara, that Dubrovnik didn't really "do" much in terms of waging wars and all that good stuff. However, its diplomacy kept it alive for five-ish centuries, which is no mean accomplishment. I do realise you're against Dubrovnik, but (1) it already exists and has both tag and province (albeit an inaccurate one) dedicated to it (2) it could be made into a viable rival for Venice. Do you wish to get rid of the nation and/or prevent a possible province?
 

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Finellach said:
Incorrect. I was posting maps while you and others were flaming the thread.
It was me in first place who asked for intervention from a mod....I asked for this thread to be closed too because you people are flaming it with totally unrelated stuff.
Pray pardon me, but how is the discussion of Greece or the FYROM in the "South-Central Europe" thread "flaming" or "unrelated?" Is that what you meant? Should we *only* discuss Croatia? I was led to believe this thread consisted of the region spanning from Austria to Greece, but I suppose I was incorrect, if such topics are indeed irrelevant.