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Sandolfon said:
Pray pardon me, but how is the discussion of Greece or the FYROM in the "South-Central Europe" thread "flaming" or "unrelated?" Is that what you meant? Should we *only* discuss Croatia? I was led to believe this thread consisted of the region spanning from Austria to Greece, but I suppose I was incorrect, if such topics are indeed irrelevant.

Greece is not in South-Central Europe. Greece is South-East Europe.
South-Central Europe is Slovenia, Austria, Croatia, Hungary and Bosnia.

South-East Europe is Greece, Bulgaria, (southern)Serbia, Montenegro and Albania.

But anyway I don't care. Ignore this...
 
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chegitz guevara said:
For all the actual effect they had on history, the comparison's valid.

Ragusa had far greater effect on history than San Marino did. I mean culturally Ragusa was the most advanced province in this side of Adriatic and it was called the reinanassance center of Dalmatia. Even today it's considered the most beautiful city in the Adriatic....with Venice of course.

Venice considered Ragusa a rival...I think that speaks the best.
It was my impression that if there was no Ottomans that Ragusa would develop in a rather strong republic...probably even stronger than Venice ever was...but history took it's course...

I've been modding this game for more than three years, so I think I have a pretty good idea.

Your idea is just that - your idea.

Then build a fantasy scenario around Ragusa. The fact is, had the earthquake not happened, Ragusa would have continued to be what it was, the Balkan traders of the Ottoman empire. They had independence in name only. It wasn't forts that defended them. The mightiest forts in the world were nothing to the Turks. Ragusa existed as an independent state because the Turks wanted them independent, because that was the only way Turkish goods could be sold in Europe, as the Christian countries barely allowed Muslims to trade there. Ragusa played no one off against anyone else. They just attached themselves to whomever appeared to be winning in the Balkans at the moment.

At the time of Ottomans yes. Ottomans were far stronger for much bigger and mightiers oppononents. Do you think Venice would hold out much longer if it had such powerful state in its backround? I don't think so....

But we don't model the game on those except as option B. We model the game on what did happen.

You model the game on what did happen for starting position not for the whole track of the game. I mean what is the interest in playing a game in which you know what will happen...that has not sense...
 

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chegitz guevara said:
Venice could use help of a territory that no other country has a core on.

At the begining of the game Venice will hold Istria, Dalmatia and Albania. It should also posibbly have Ragusa as a vassal. What more do you want? :confused:

Venice was strong but not that strong...
 

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Hive said:
Latest version:

post-25-1108209902.jpg


Comments?

The maps now looks great....fantastic! :D

Next up: Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania. I'm not sure quite what to do here, any suggestions are welcome...

I would divide Bulgaria into Vidin, Turnovo(Srednogorie), Rumelia and Dobrudja(Karvuna). Perhaps another province would fit in there...but I don't know.

Romania should obviously consist of Wallachia, Moldavia and posibbly Oltenia(Severin).

Of course for Hungary I think Transylvania is essential in the east, Banat should be a bit bigger than in original. Also to the west I think Odenburg(or whatever it was called) should be a bit bigger as well named Transdanubia or perhaps Panoania(maybe Pecs). Central part should be Pest(or Buda...depends) and of course to the northwest Pressburg.
Way to the north should be a bit modified province of Carapathia named Nitra with a bit more going into Hungarian teritory.

btw. sorry for multiple posts...I had to do it this way...
 

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Finellach said:
At the begining of the game Venice will hold Istria, Dalmatia and Albania.

Albania was both a vassal and ally of the Ottomans in 1419. Albania should be an existing state, not part of Venice.

Finellach said:
It should also posibbly have Ragusa as a vassal.

Venice surrendered its claim to Ragusa forever in 1358. In 1419, Ragusa was a vassal of Hungary, and one hundred years later it became a vassal of the Ottoman Empire.

Finellach said:
Venice was strong but not that strong...

Venice was the second strongest power in the Mediterranian. Only the Turks were stronger.
 

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Finellach said:
It was my impression that if there was no Ottomans that Ragusa would develop in a rather strong republic...probably even stronger than Venice ever was...but history took it's course...

I think that may be a somewhat biased opinion... exactly what basis do you have for it?

I personally find it rather unrealistic that Ragusa would have been able to surpass Venice in power and wealth...

I would divide Bulgaria into Vidin, Turnovo(Srednogorie), Rumelia and Dobrudja(Karvuna). Perhaps another province would fit in there...but I don't know.

4 provinces in Bulgaria seems a lot to me... I'd say 3.
 

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chegitz guevara said:
Venice surrendered its claim to Ragusa forever in 1358. In 1419, Ragusa was a vassal of Hungary, and one hundred years later it became a vassal of the Ottoman Empire.

Ragusa after that became vassal of Venice just before it was annexed to Austria.

It was never vassal of Ottoman Empire.

Venice was the second strongest power in the Mediterranian. Only the Turks were stronger.

Due to the fact there was absolutly no competition.
 

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Hive said:
I think that may be a somewhat biased opinion... exactly what basis do you have for it?

Biased? How do you figure that?

I personally find it rather unrealistic that Ragusa would have been able to surpass Venice in power and wealth...

You find it unrealistic because you know that Venice became power and Ragusa did not. But let us back to the begining when both these city-states were at their starting point. Ragusa was in fact richer and stronger city than Venice.

During the time of Croatian Kingdom Venice was a small city that had to pay tribute to Croatia and had Germans behind their back.
Similary to what Ragusa experienced later with Ottoman Empire.

Do you really think Venice would become what it was if it wasn't for Ottomans? Ottoman Turks actually removed all competition for them...they removed Hungary-Croatia, they removed Bosnia, they restrained Ragusa.

The islands that were part of Croatian Kingdom now passed into Venice and brought then supremacy on the sea.

In any case this is totally unimportant now as you included it. :)

4 provinces in Bulgaria seems a lot to me... I'd say 3.

I think it wouldn't be bad if we leave it as it already is. Only thing we should do is a name changing. Bulgaria should be renamed to Turnovo and Rumelia to Varna(Rumelia was name for all Ottoman possesion besides Bosnia).

Btw. you should make a little corrections regarding Serbia province.
This is how it is now =>
11.gif


This is how it should be =>
12.GIF


Small correction really.

Also I think you should rename the province 'Pelaoonia'(?!?) to 'Ochrid'.
 

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Finellach said:
Ragusa after that became vassal of Venice just before it was annexed to Austria.

It was never vassal of Ottoman Empire.

Ragusa most certainly was a vassal of the Ottoman Empire, and the Ottomans granted them enormous economic leeway for their fealthy.
 

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Mad King James said:
Ragusa most certainly was a vassal of the Ottoman Empire, and the Ottomans granted them enormous economic leeway for their fealthy.

Incorrect.
 

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Well then, let's get it on then :p

The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia said:
Dubrovnik (dū'brôvnĭk) , Ital. Ragusa, city (1991 pop. 49,728), in extreme S Croatia, on a promontory of the Dalmatian coast in the Adriatic Sea. It is a port and tourist and cultural center, with some light industries. Dubrovnik was founded as Ragusium in the 7th cent. by Romans fleeing Slav incursions. Later, however, Slavic people settled in the city, which became a link between the Latin and Slavic civilizations. Ragusa became a powerful merchant republic (the term argosy derives from its name); although it was a protectorate of the Byzantine Empire until 1205, of Venice until 1358, of Hungary until 1526, and of the Ottoman Empire until 1806, it remained virtually independent until it was abolished in 1808 by Napoleon I and included in the Illyrian provs. The Congress of Vienna assigned (1815) it to Austria, and in 1918, as Dubrovnik, it was included in what became (1929) Yugoslavia. The medieval city was a center of south Slavic culture and literature. It suffered a severe earthquake in 1667 but retains much medieval architecture, notably its walls and forts, customshouse, mint, 15th-century rector's palace, and Dominican and Franciscan monasteries, with one of the oldest (1317) pharmacies in Europe. The city was heavily damaged in fighting that followed Croatia's secession from Yugoslavia in 1991, but much of the damage was repaired, and the tourism industry largely revived, by 2000.

KMLA said:
In 1667, Ragusa was struck by a heavt earthquake. In 1683 the Turks were defeated in the Battle of Kahlenberg outside Vienna, and in the Treaty of Carlovitz 1699 they ceded all of Hungary, Transylvania, Slavonia, Dalmatia and Podolia to the victorious Austrians, Venetians and Poles. The Ottoman Empire was no more a threat to christian Europe, it turned into the "Sick Man of Europe".
Thus, Ragusa's special relations to the Ottoman Empire equally dropped in importance and the city's decline began. Ragusa continued it's policy of strict neutrality in the War of Austrian succession (1741-1748) and in the 7 Years War (1756-1763). With the intensification of oceanic trade, the Mediterranean trade in general and with it Ragusa's economic function continued to decline.
In 1806, the Republic of Ragusa was conquered by Napoleon's troops; in 1808 it was incorporated into the Illyrian Provinces.

http://www.apartments-vela-luka.com/dubrovnik-neretva.asp said:
Dubrovnik, one of the smallest cities, enjoyed great importance in the movement of goods and travelers in Europe for a thousand years. The city was awarded this role due to its exceptional geographical position and held onto it for a long time. It is the last protected point along the sailing route from the ports of the North-western Adriatic towards the south-east. South of Dubrovnik, the only thing facing sailing boats in the deep, open sea. During bad weather, Dubrovnik presented a safe haven for travellers patiently waiting for calmer seas or for those travelling by land to destinations like Constantinople, the wealthy cities of the East and the Holy Land. This is how this strong citadel, a safe refuge for travellers, became one of the most important points along the world travel route. Tiny Dubrovnik thus became the counterpoint to the larger Venice. Here rose another exceptional town, Korcula, situated on the narrowest of passages full of small reefs. from the time of Venice, Korcula was used as the most convenient point for the monitoring of traffic. Both towns are built upon cliffs protecting extensive ports. The roles of both towns gave them their characteristic shape and thair particular town plan. Many of the streets in Korcula lead to the highest point of the town, the bell tower of the Cathedral of St Mark. The streets of Dubrovnik descend from the clifftops to the bay, towards the wide main street called Stradun. The strength of Dubrovnik resulted from its skill in diplomacy which the political elite often took advantage of for their own benefit. By intelligent manoeuvring, it benefitted from the Turkish advance towards Central Europe in the 16th century to establish its almost monopolistic commercial position. The boom which followed saw an unprecedented growth in the commercial fleet which competed with the largest of the maritime fleets in the Mediterranean. As the number of commercial ships carrying Dubrovnik flags grew, so did their nave, specifically constructed boats from Dubrovnik shipbuilders. The largest boats from the shipyard could only be lowered into the sea on their starboard side. This unique procedure is still not easily adopted by contemporary shipyards. And today, for lovers of hand-crafted boats, natives of Korcula still construct them; boats which evolved from centuries of life beside the sea.
 

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Finellach said:
Biased? How do you figure that?

I figure that because it seems like you see them in a different light than everyone else just because they are from your home region...

You find it unrealistic because you know that Venice became power and Ragusa did not. But let us back to the begining when both these city-states were at their starting point. Ragusa was in fact richer and stronger city than Venice.

The beginning? When? In the 12th century or something? Because by 1419, Venice was the by far most powerful nation in the Adriatic Sea.

Do you really think Venice would become what it was if it wasn't for Ottomans? Ottoman Turks actually removed all competition for them...they removed Hungary-Croatia, they removed Bosnia, they restrained Ragusa.

I fail to see how Hungary and Croatia influenced Venetian power. Already before OE crushed Hungary and Croatia, Venice had beaten them both in a war for the Dalmatian coast. Venice had supremacy. And they most certainly were no competitors for Venice on the sea.

The islands that were part of Croatian Kingdom now passed into Venice and brought then supremacy on the sea.

Eh.. are you suggesting that those Istrian islands were what made Venice so powerful?

In any case this is totally unimportant now as you included it. :)

I do believe that Ragusa were important enough to be in the game - I just don't agree that they were as important as you say, during the EU2 time period. ;)

I think it wouldn't be bad if we leave it as it already is. Only thing we should do is a name changing. Bulgaria should be renamed to Turnovo and Rumelia to Varna(Rumelia was name for all Ottoman possesion besides Bosnia).

Well 4 provinces could work if you consider Dubrudja as a part of Bulgaria... if not, then 3 provs should suffice.

I'll look into the Serbian correction.

Also I think you should rename the province 'Pelaoonia'(?!?) to 'Ochrid'.

Pelagonia. I kinda liked that name... why 'Ochrid'? You sure that's accurate?
 

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Here is the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica article on Ragusa.

HistoryThe name Ragusa is of uncertain origin. Constantine Porphyrogenitus, in the I oth century, connects its early form, Lausa, with Xciii, a precipice. Jire~ek dissents from this view, and from the common opinion that Dubrovnik is derived from the Slavonic dubrava, woody. The city first became prominent during the 7th century. In 639 and 656 the flourishing Latin communities of Salona and Epidaurum were destroyed by the Avars, and the island rock of Ragusa was colonized by the survivors. Tradition identifies Epidaurum, whence the majority came, with the neighboring village of Ragusavecchia; but some historians, including Gelcich, place it on the shores of the Bocche di Cattaro. Both sites show signs of Roman occupation. A colony of Slays soon joined the Latin settlers at Ragusa, and thus, from an early date, the city formed a link between two great civilizations (see VLACHS). In the 9th century it is said to have repulsed the Saracens; in the joth it defended itself against the Narentine pirates, and Simeon, tsar of the Bulgarians. Some writers consider that it submitted to Venice in 998, with the rest of Dalmatia; but this is generally denied by the native historians. During the 11th century an enforced alliance with the Normans drew the republic into war with Venice and Byzantium; and in the 12th century it was attacked by the Bosnians and Serbs. From 1205 to 1358 it acknowledged Venetian suzerainty; its chief magistrate was the Venetian count; and its archbishops, who wielded much political influence, were often Venetian nominees. The constitution took shape during this period, and the first statute-book was published in 1272. Only patricians could hold office in the senate, grand council and lesser council, three bodies which shared the work of government with the count, or, after 1358, the rector. The ancient popular assembly was almost obsolete before the i4th century. Ragusan policy was usually peaceful, and disputes with other nations were frequently arranged by a system of arbitration called stanicum. To refugees of all nations, even to those who had been its own bitter foes, the city afforded asylum; and by means of treaty and tribute it worked its way to a position of mercantile power which Europe could hardly parallel. It was conveniently situated at the seaward end of a great trade route, which bifurcated at Plevije to Byzantium and the Danube. A compact with the Turks, made in 1370 and renewed in the next century, saved Ragusa from the fate of its more powerful neighbors, Servia and Byzantium, besides enabling the Ragusan caravans to penetrate into Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia, Servia, Bulgaria and Rumania. From 1358 to 1526 the republic was a vassal state of Hungary, and no longer controlled by its greatest commercial rival. It acquired, among other territories, the important ship-building and saltproducing centre Stagno Grande (Ston Veliki), on the promontory of Sabbioncello; and from 1413 to 1416 it held the islands of Curzola, Brazza and Lesina by lease from Hungary. Meanwhile, Ragusan vessels were known not only in Italy, Sicily, Spain, Greece, the Levant and Egypt, but in the more northern parts of Europe. The English language retains in the word argosy a reminiscence of the carracks of Ragusa, long known to Englishmen as Argouse, Argusa or Aragosa. In the 16th century the Ragusan merchants went even to India and America, but they were unable to compete with their rivals from western Europe. Many of their seamen took service with Spain; and twelve of their finest ships were lost with the Invincible Armada in 1588. After 5526 the downfall of Hungary left Ragusa free; and about this time a great development of art and literature, begun in the i5th century and continued into the 17th, earned for the city its title of the South Slavonic Athens. (See SERVIA, Literature.) The earthquake of 1667, which had been preceded by lesser shocks in 1520, 1521, 5536 and 1639, destroyed a considerable portion of the city, and killed about one-fifth of the inhabitants. Only during the Napoleonic wars did the republic regain its prosperity. From 18oo to 5805 it was the sole Mediterranean state remaining neutral, and thus it secured a very large share of the carrying trade. In 1805, however, it was seized by the French; Napoleon deprived it of independence; and in 1814 it was annexed to Austria.

Make of that what you will.