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Pessimus Dux Sclavorum
Apr 16, 2004
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Due to the fact general thread was closed I am opening a new one for discussion and about modificiations of the map in the south-central Europe.

Original map ==>
map1.jpg


My first draft ==>
map.JPG


This was later variation ==>
variation.jpg


1. Carniola/Krain/Kranjska; main product: Iron; cultures: Slavonic; Capital: Laibach(Ljubljana) or Trieste(Trst)
2. Croatia/Hrvatska, main produtc: clothes; cultures: Slavonic; capital: Zagreb/Agram
3. Slavonia/Slavonija; main product: grain; cultures: Slavonic; capital: Osijek/Esseg(Essek)
4. Bosnia/Bosna; main product: wool; cultures: Slavonic; capital: Sarajevo
5. Dalmatia/Dalmacija; main produtct: wine; cultures: Slavonic; capital: Zadar/Zara
6. Montenegro/Crna Gora; main product: wool; cultures: Slavonic; capital: Kotor/Cattaro
7. Ragusa/Dubrovnik; main prduct: fish; cultures: Slavonic; capital: Dubrovnik/Ragusa
8. Serbia/Srbija; main product: copper; cultures: Slavonic; capital: Beograd/Belgrade
9. Kosovo; main product: Gold; cultures: Albanian; capital: Prishtina
10. Dyrrachion/Durres/Durazzo; main product: wool; cultures: Albanian; capital: Dyrrachion/Durres/Durazzo
11. Banat/Vojvodina; main product: grain; cultures: Slavonic; capital: Temesvar

Also the rest of the province of Albania as in this modified version should be renamed to Epirus. Along with Dyrrachion these should have Albanian culture and should be part of the Albanian core.
Montenegro, Kosovo, Banat and Serbia should be part of Serbian core.
Dalmatia, Slavonia and Croatia part of Croatian core.
Ragusa and Bosnia should be alone.

I've also added in my suggestion few more islands as the Adriatic coast has more than 1000 islands and some pretty important.
I think that maybe both of the upper two islands should go to Krain.

Please make suggestions, but be polite. I don't want to loose another thread because someone has a bad day... :rolleyes:
 
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Pessimus Dux Sclavorum
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bluelotus said:
If we are talking about central Europe , someone can do something with Hungary. I think provinces called Magyar , and Pest are really ugly. :rolleyes:

Yes Hungary is also awful. I think "Magyar" province should be renamed to 'Pest' and bit reshaped. "Pest" province should be 'Pecs' province...IMO. Opinions?
Also Carpathia region/province looks totally wrong.

I'll try to make some revision and post here...

XieChengnuo said:
Would you rather have Serbia connected to Montenegro? Or disconnected?

I'd rather have it disconnected because between Serbia and Montenegro should be another province called simply Sandzak(Sanjak - turkish name), but this province would be just to small, that was that western "horn" of Kosovo province in my first modification. But as I said my second variation is good and it looks good enough...I understand it can't be totally 100% historically correct.

I Killed Kenny said:
I don't like the new Map... Venice should have the islands of the adriatic that she had...

And for that you don't like the whole map proposition? Aren't you bit overreacting? I mean we'd have to make all islands separate province in order to make it so? Istria too. Would that be posibble? I'd like this also, but I doubt that is posibble...we've seen how much opposition I faced for my original proposition for Ragusa/Dubrovnik province for being too small. Besides how would be call this island-made province?

In the original game Venice at the begining of the grand campaign also holds Dalmatia and Istria provinces, Venice never held any teritory on the coast except at times few towns such as Zadar and couple of minor cities/settlements along with the fact that 'Repulic of Ragusa' was their vassal at times as well.
 

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Finellach,
I do think your map is a godsend to the otherwise irritatingly incorrect one at present. Perhaps I Killed Kenny does have a point, though. Adriatic islands would demonstrate the historic and strategic presence that the Venetian Republic had in the region without implying that it held much territory on the mainland (which, of course, it didn't). Yes, this/these island/islands may be too small--perhaps someone should simulate the size of this suggestion as done in the previous thread with Dubrovnik?
 

Captain Frakas

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Cosmetic way : merge theses isles to Veneto province. :D
 

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Pessimus Dux Sclavorum
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I agree completly but as said we have a problem of size here. We have all seen what Ragusa "did" in the other thread. :p

Anyway I made another test variation with 'Istrian peninsula+Adriatic islands' province...and it corresponds with historical region-areas that Venice held in Adriatic for quite some time....this would satisfy history purists, but I am not sure(having in mind previous discussion and mess around Ragusa) that it is "strategically significant". :D

Here it is ==>
variation2a.JPG


It's marked with number 12 and green color. It holds Istria peninsula and all the islands in the Adriatic(which I added btw.) save the one before Ragusa(that one was part of Ragusa/Dubrovnik Republic-province).

Edit: btw. one may notice that I changed islands a bit to be more similar to the real thing(islands shape) and I also moved Dalmatia-Croatia(2 and 5 province) a bit north since I figured out that it's a bit too much to the south.
 
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Pessimus Dux Sclavorum
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Eric Lasalle said:
I like your map suggestions.

However some additions I have, provinces 2 shouldn't have a harbor (maybe province 5 too). This would be a possibility to boost a potenial conflict between Austria and Venice.

I agree with province 2, but province 5(Dalmatia) not having a harbour would be very ahistorical and IMO wrong....Dalmatia had important harbours-cities from ancient times while province 2 coastal area is rather "unsuitable" for harbours actually....this is the area of the Mountain Velebit(one of the highest mountains in Dinaric Alps reaching some 3kms)....thats why there are no big cities(harbours) there.
 

bluelotus

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Finellach said:
Yes Hungary is also awful. I think "Magyar" province should be renamed to 'Pest' and bit reshaped. "Pest" province should be 'Pecs' province...IMO. Opinions?

I think "Magyar" should be "Pest" as you said , with "Buda" as capital. Pecs should be ok.

Finellach said:
Also Carpathia region/province looks totally wrong

I agree.

EDIT: And put river "Tisza" into our new map.
 

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I Killed Kenny said:
Well as Johan said... The game has those provinces, BECAUSE they have an objective.. to give to Venice the Absulut control of the Adriatic... Something they had.. something they will lose if those provinces exist... I personaly believe the map *before* look better...

Venice would still have Dalmatia in it's ownership while if we introduce province 12 (Istria and Adriatic islands) with province 2 (Croatia) not having harbour we would have almost completly historical and strategically very good situation with Venice owning Dalmatia(number 2 province) and Istria-adriatic islands province(number 12 province) having full control over the Adriatic....in any case much, MUCH better situation than it ever was in original map.

Btw. what do you mean the map looked better "before"? Are you saying that it looked better as in original? :eek:

bluelotus what should we do with 'Maros' province? I believe I never heard about any similar province? Should it be renamed, reshaped? I need to look at the old maps.... :)
 

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bluelotus said:
If we are talking about central Europe , someone can do something with Hungary. I think provinces called Magyar , and Pest are really ugly. :rolleyes:

IF the provinces are going to remain the same shape, how about Felvidék for 325 Magyar and Dunántúl for 353 Pest?
 

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Finnelach, your latest map looks really great and would be a huge improvement over the old one :)
It might be quite nice to have a Hercegovina/Hum province split off from the Dalmatia and Bosnia provinces, in order to give Bosnia a coastline in 1419 (which it had) and allow for an independent Hercegovina (at least in mods) after 1448.
Regarding Hungary - provided that the flow of the Danube is finally corrected - I think the division should be as follows (replaced my former proposal that wasn't really good):
- one province between the Danube in the north, the Drava in the south and the lake Balaton in the east, with the city of Györ/Raab
- one province between the Danube in the south, the March in the west and the Carpathians in the east, with the city of Bratislava
- one province between the Danube in the north and east and the Balaton in the west and the south, with the city of Buda
- one province between the lake Balaton in the west and north, the Danube in the east and the Drava in the south, with the city of Pécs/Fünfkirchen
- one province between the Danube in the south and west, the Carpathians in the north and the Tisza in the east, with the city of Szeged
- one province covering the Western Carpathians, with the city of Kosice
- one province between the Tisza in the west, the Maros in the south, the Szamos in the north and the Carpathians in the east, with the city of Nagyvarad/Oradea/Großwardein
- one province between the Maros in the north, the Carpathians in the east, the Danube in the south and the Tisza in the west, with the city of Temesvár (or perhaps with Beograd?)
This would mean one more province for Hungary except Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia, which should be easily implementable considering the large current size of the Hungarian provinces.
EDIT: changed my proposal for Hungary. Hope you can understand what I mean by the geographic descriptions, otherwise I can post a map that shows the rivers and mountains :)
 
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Classique

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Finellach said:
Anyway I made another test variation with 'Istrian peninsula+Adriatic islands' province...and it corresponds with historical region-areas that Venice held in Adriatic for quite some time....this would satisfy history purists, but I am not sure(having in mind previous discussion and mess around Ragusa) that it is "strategically significant". :D

I like this map; I've always been a big proponent of Carniola and Istria being geographically correct.
 

Abdul Goatherd

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Even allowing for exaggeration, it still looks like Venice held a big chunk of coast, if you ask me.

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