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unmerged(28604)

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Hive said:
Well this isn't *my* thread, but I would indeed appreciate it if you started a new thread for this Scandinavia mod you talk about - since I started this thread as part of a balanced world EU2 map.

Consider it done!
 

Hallsten

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Ok, this is my attempt at having a go at the Scandinavian issue. What I didn't make up myself I stole from other people's ideas, so don't accuse me of trying to get away with it... :D
scandinavia2copy0ym.jpg

old map: 29 provinces
new map: 34 provinces

1: Holstein - independent nation
2: Schleswig - danish
3: Jylland
4: Själland - bornholm should be a part of själland instead of hinterpommern
5: Skåne
6: Småland
7: Älvsborg - swedish
8: Bohuslän - norwegian
9: Västergötland
10: Östergötland
11: Svealand
12: Viken
13: Bergenhus
14: Eidsiva
15: Tröndelag
16: Bergslagen
17: Hälsingland
18: Jämtland/Härjedalen - norwegian
19: Hålgoland
20: Lappland
21: Västerbotten
22: Finnmark
23: Österbotten
24: Satakunda
25: Finland
26: Tavastland
27: Nyland
28: Savolax
29: Kexholm - novgorodian
30: Karelen - swedish
31: Ingermandland - novgorodian
32: Estland
33: Gotland
34: Iceland

the borders are sloppy this far, but I'll fix them when I've corrected the bugs you'll find for me... :)
comments anyone?
 

Hive

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Why add 2 provinces to Finland?

Also, I think Ävlsborg is too small.
 

Hallsten

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Hive said:
Why add 2 provinces to Finland?

Also, I think Ävlsborg is too small.

I wanted to add to historicity and make it possible for a more historical westward expansion of Russia. It might prevent an early Russian fleet if the port was removed from Ingermanland and instead put in Karelen. Ingermanland didn't really have any port worth mentioning until St Petersburg appeared in 1703 and by then tsar Peter had conquered Karelen as well. IMHO the eastern part of Finland is modelled pretty badly in vanilla EU2.

edit: Taking care of Älvsborg is easily done, but I think it's a _very_ interesting addition to Scandinavia as a whole...
 

Nikolai II

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Hallsten said:
edit: Taking care of Älvsborg is easily done, but I think it's a _very_ interesting addition to Scandinavia as a whole...

Give it all of Västergötland south of Vänern and keep the northern part as Värmland (You could call it Västergötland again, or something else).
(You can use the lake between Västergötland and Östergötland as an excuse for not being able to walk between those two provinces and the game will behave just as by your setup)

Bergslagen should be named Dalarna since you moved it up north?
 

Hallsten

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Nikolai II said:
Give it all of Västergötland south of Vänern and keep the northern part as Värmland (You could call it Västergötland again, or something else).
(You can use the lake between Västergötland and Östergötland as an excuse for not being able to walk between those two provinces and the game will behave just as by your setup)

Bergslagen should be named Dalarna since you moved it up north?

Good ideas, but I'd rather not see an all too big Älvsborg. Maybe add some of southern Västergötland, but I still want it to be possible to move between Småland and Västergötland if Älvsborg is lost.

Bergslagen => Dalarna seems like a good idea.
 

unmerged(16460)

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Slesvig wouldn't be danish is was lost to Holstein in the middle of the 14'th century, and though the northen parts where given back in 1920, the city of Slesvig remained on german hands. Slesvig-Holstein might have had the same king as Denmark since 1461 but it did not have the same constitution, rigsraad - and so on. Thus compensating for the increase of Swedish provinces by adding Slesvig would only further the allready unhistorical imbalance between Denmark and Sweden! - Just had to say it
 

Hallsten

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Kong Skjold said:
Slesvig wouldn't be danish is was lost to Holstein in the middle of the 14'th century, and though the northen parts where given back in 1920, the city of Slesvig remained on german hands. Slesvig-Holstein might have had the same king as Denmark since 1461 but it did not have the same constitution, rigsraad - and so on. Thus compensating for the increase of Swedish provinces by adding Slesvig would only further the allready unhistorical imbalance between Denmark and Sweden! - Just had to say it

I'm no expert on the feodal system of Germany, but I guess that Schleswig and Holstein had the same relationship to the Danish king as Vorpommern, Bremen-Verden and Wismar had to the Swedish king. They were not part of Sweden proper, but since the Swedish king was regarded as an imperial prince of the HRE with these provinces as feifs, its incomes still went to the crown. As such I see no problem with Schleswig and Holstein going to the Danish crown in 1461 as you mentioned.
 

unmerged(34273)

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Shouldn´t åland be a part of uppland? Upp till 1809 it was administerd from Sweden, not Finland. Only after russia took it did it become part of Finland.
 

unmerged(17489)

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BueDigre said:
Shouldn´t åland be a part of uppland? Upp till 1809 it was administerd from Sweden, not Finland. Only after russia took it did it become part of Finland.
That's exactly how it's modelled in-game. When Russia takes Finland, Åland goes with it :)
 

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Hallsten said:
I'm no expert on the feodal system of Germany, but I guess that Schleswig and Holstein had the same relationship to the Danish king as Vorpommern, Bremen-Verden and Wismar had to the Swedish king. They were not part of Sweden proper, but since the Swedish king was regarded as an imperial prince of the HRE with these provinces as feifs, its incomes still went to the crown. As such I see no problem with Schleswig and Holstein going to the Danish crown in 1461 as you mentioned.

I'm no expert either, but the diference that had the largest impact where the "rigsråd". In Denmark the king couldn't take a shit without asking the extremly conservative rigsråd permission first (that btw. is why Denmark did not have any significant standing army untill after 1660). As duke of Slesvig-Holstein however he could do pretty much as he pleased (exagurating). That is why af years of negotiation between the rigsråd and the king that Christian IV during the Kalmar wars had to threathen the rigsråd that he would declare war on Sweden as the duke of Holstein if they did not allow him to declare it as the king of Denmark (any gains would have gone directly to Christian IV as the duke of Holstein instead of going to Denmark under the controll of the rigsråd). Basically the only thing in common with Holstein and Denmark was the king. After 1660 however I can see the sense in making Slesvig and Holstein part of Denmark, since the the dansih king now had the right to declare wars, acces to the treasury, etc. - So its not the feudal system of germany that was my concern, but the internal government of Denmark and Holstein as seperates.
 

Hallsten

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Kong Skjold said:
I'm no expert either, but the diference that had the largest impact where the "rigsråd". In Denmark the king couldn't take a shit without asking the extremly conservative rigsråd permission first (that btw. is why Denmark did not have any significant standing army untill after 1660). As duke of Slesvig-Holstein however he could do pretty much as he pleased (exagurating). That is why af years of negotiation between the rigsråd and the king that Christian IV during the Kalmar wars had to threathen the rigsråd that he would declare war on Sweden as the duke of Holstein if they did not allow him to declare it as the king of Denmark (any gains would have gone directly to Christian IV as the duke of Holstein instead of going to Denmark under the controll of the rigsråd). Basically the only thing in common with Holstein and Denmark was the king. After 1660 however I can see the sense in making Slesvig and Holstein part of Denmark, since the the dansih king now had the right to declare wars, acces to the treasury, etc. - So its not the feudal system of germany that was my concern, but the internal government of Denmark and Holstein as seperates.

Gotta love that 17th century diplomacy. Just like when the archduke of Austria declared war on Sweden as king of Hungary to circumvent the peace of Westphalia... :rofl:
It's hard to know how to model some diplomatic relations, but in this case I think a proper union between Denmark and Schleswig-Holstein would be the best idea. Seems like the Danish regent was more the duke of S-H than he was the king of Denmark. So, either Denmark is a vassal of S-H or S-H is an integral part of Denmark. The great power of the Rigsråd can be modeled through the sliders and events in the same style as the "Reining in the Beys"-set for the Ottomans...
 

Gwalcmai

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In Hallsten's map, I'd connect provinces 6 and 7 (like hell I'm going to try to use those barbaric names :p). It would help solve the problem of province 7 being too small to be clicked, and address what Norrenfeld said before about the distance between north and south being shorter going up the west coast and through the interior than by going along the east coast. Maybe not enough to cut 9 from 6, but at least enough to cut it off from 5. Was this what Nikolai II was proposing? :)
 

Hallsten

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ok, here's a new attempt at this:
scandinavia2copy23nv.jpg

old map: 29 provinces
new map: 34 provinces

1: Holstein - independent nation
2: Schleswig - danish
3: Jylland
4: Själland - bornholm should be a part of själland instead of hinterpommern
5: Skåne
6: Småland
7: Älvsborg - swedish
8: Bohuslän - norwegian
9: Västergötland
10: Östergötland
11: Svealand
12: Viken
13: Bergenhus
14: Eidsiva
15: Tröndelag
16: Bergslagen
17: Hälsingland
18: Jämtland/Härjedalen - norwegian
19: Hålgoland
20: Lappland
21: Västerbotten
22: Finnmark
23: Österbotten
24: Fyn
25: Finland
26: Tavastland
27: Nyland
28: Savolax
29: Kexholm - novgorodian
30: Karelen - swedish
31: Ingermandland - novgorodian
32: Estland
33: Gotland
34: Iceland

ok, I merged Satakunda and Finland and added Fyn for Denmark. I also enlarged Älvsborg and connected Älvsborg with Småland.
Better? :rolleyes:
I also fixed that four-way border up north...
 

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Hallsten said:
18: Jämtland/Härjedalen - norwegian
If this is supposed to be Jämtland AND Härjedalen, it would be nice to have Härjedalen in it as well? :p Härjedalen is the part of the OLD Jämtland province that is now in the NEW Bergslagen province.
 

Hallsten

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deallus said:
If this is supposed to be Jämtland AND Härjedalen, it would be nice to have Härjedalen in it as well? :p Härjedalen is the part of the OLD Jämtland province that is now in the NEW Bergslagen province.

I moved the whole thing up a bit to make it look better, but maybe I did a poor job?
 

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Well, it doesn't have to be that bad, I just think province Jämtland/Härjedalen should get Härjedalen as well :)
 

Hallsten

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ok, I reworked it a bit more. I've fixed Jämtland/Härjedalen a little as requested and I smudged up Fyn så it's a little larger now... :)
Also, wouldn't it be goot with a strait between Svealand and Finland?
scandinavia2copy36pe.jpg
 

Aetius

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Karelen and Karelia is a bit confusing don't you think?