Map Changes to Greece and Bulgaria

[starwarsbv]

Personally I couldn't stand the shapes of the provinces in Greece and Bulgaria.
Since no attention has been given to Greece or Bulgaria in a while, I took it upon myself to suggest some map changes for the region. My goal was to redraw the jagged and blocky provinces, especially in Bulgaria, and also to fix some historical inaccuracies, while keeping new provinces to a minimum.

Here are my changes.

A version without numbering can be found here. For comparison, the base map is here. A version with cities can be found here.
Names are shown in color (see the information table). In provinces without names and just a number, see its number on the list below for its name.

There are 7 new provinces and no new tags. Below is an explanation of the changes I made. New provinces are in bold and underlined. Preexisting provinces use the names given in the 1444 start (Turkish names). Development data are only suggestions.

Topography information not included in the map above is colored in yellow.

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1) Nafplio - City that belonged to Venice until 1540. Capital is Nauplion. Possible development could be 3/3/1 and possible resources are grain or wine. Cores: Venice, Byzantium, Morea

The Greek name is Nafplio. The Italian/Venetian name is Nauplion. The Turkish name is Mora Yenişehri.

2) Arta - The final lands of the Despotate of Epirus, a Byzantine successor state that survived in this province until 1479. Capital is Vonitsa. Possible development could be 2/2/1 and possible resources are wool or livestock. Cores: Epirus, Byzantium

3) Selanik - Redrew the borders to be less jagged.

4) Üsküp/Macedonia - Redrawn to be less blocky. Since both Serbia and Bulgaria have a core here, it was drawn to fit their borders better in case they recapture it.

5) Plovdiv - Redrawn to be less blocky. Greek name is Boulgaria (a theme of a similar name)

6) Sofya - Redrawn to be less blocky. Greek name is Triaditza.

7) Nigbolu/Tarnovo - Redrawn to be less blocky. Greek name is Moesia.

8) Sliven (İslimye in Turkish) - A new Bulgarian province. Capital is Sliven. Possible development could be 3/3/2 and possible resources are grain or livestock. Cores: Ottomans, Bulgaria
Greek name would be Evros.

9) Strymon - A Greek area of economic relevance. Capital is Komotini. Possible development is 3/3/1 and possible resources are grain or livestock. Cores: Ottomans, Byzantium.
Turkish name is Siroz. The Greek name is Strymon.

10) Edirne - Redrawn to be less jagged.

11) Kirkkilise - Redrawn to be less blocky and to fit the coast a bit better.

This province is improperly named. The Turkish name should be Burgaz. The Bulgarian name should be Burgas. The Greek name should be Pyrgos.

12) Attica (aka Athens)- City of Athens and the capital of the Duchy of Athens. Capital city is Athens. Possible development is 3/3/1 and possible resources are fish. Cores: Athens, Byzantium. Venice, Florence, and Aragon could also receive a core because they ruled the city at different points in the 14th and 15th centuries.
Greek name is Attica or Athens. Turkish name is Atina.

13) Boeotia - This area was actually an important area during the final years of Byzantium. Capital is Thebes. Possible development is 2/2/1 and possible resources are grain and silk. Cores: Athens, Byzantium.
Turkish name would be İstefe.

14) Tirhala/Thessaly - I redrew this to be less blocky and jagged.

15) Kesriye/Kastoria - I redrew this to be less circular.

16) Silistria - Reduced in size. Capital is Silistria. Possible development is 2/2/1. Cores: Ottomans, Bulgaria

17) Dobruja - Split from Silistria. Capital would be Constantia. Possible development would be 3/3/3 and possible resources are fish, grain, or livestock. Cores: Ottomans, Bulgaria
Turkish name is Dobruca. Bulgarian name is Dobrudzha. Greek name is Dobrobitia. Romanian name is Dobrogea.

18) The borders of Achaea and Morea were slightly ammended to fit Nafplio and to be less blocky. No other changes were made.

19) Epirus - Reduced in size. Development should be lowered as well. Cores: Ottomans, Byzantium, Epirus

20) Lemnos - A group of islands that were ruled by Genoa. Capital would be Samothraki. Possible development would be around 1/1/1 and possible resources are fish. Cores: Genoa I am still on the fence about this one. It seems unnecessary, but then again, the Balearic Islands have 3 different provinces so why not?

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These changes would add 25-30 development to Greece, and ~17 development to Bulgaria. Again, no new tags are added, but Epirus (which already exists as a tag) should be added to the 1444 start as it existed historically, and Venice would get a province.

Loosely based off of this map from 1410.

Please tell me what you think and hopefully these changes could be considered in a future patch.

Edit I: Instead of Argos, province no. 1 would be called Nafplio. Its description has been updated.

Edit II: Changed formatting, added Lemnos and amended Arta/Epirus.

Edit III: Altered names. Redraw some Bulgarian provinces to match cities.

Edit IV: Updated Boeotia, Dobruja, Strymon, and others. Possible resource in Boeotia is silk. Lowered development of Athens.

 

[Chreees]

All changes seem to make sense, and would make playing in that area, particlarly for non-Ottoman players more intresting. I would love to seen these changes, or changes like these implemented into the game

 

[navaluiki]

Some of your provinces barely encompass the cities they are named after or they don't at all. For example, Plovdiv, Arta, Drama, Tarnovo or Sofia.

 

[JackAlNXT]

The only problem is that Plovdiv (5) doesn't actually include the city of Plovdiv, it's in the neighbouring state of Sliven (8).

 

[Mutagen_Prime]

Very aesthetic province layout.

 

[Mingmung]

There's very much wrong with this map (as some others pointed out, too).
- Lamia and the whole valley was under Ottoman control, one of the reasons why I don't support an Athens-split.
- Nafplio was one of many trading cities. If we include all of them, the map would be a mess. The devs also don't really support micro-provinces, unless it's a Free City or something.
- Dobruja has the wrong shape, it should go to the Danube-delta.
- Giving Constanta as capital of Dobruja is kind of odd, it was a and insignificant small town. It only gained prominence when it got into Romanian hands after the EU4 period and became one of the bigger towns of Romania. I'd personally go for Tolcu/Tulcea, it was a trading town under Ottoman control; known for its wool-trade.
- Tarnovo and Nigbolu are not the same; I'd split them in two.
- Kirkilise (as well as the current one in vanilla) isn't where the town is located. The town itself is actually located in the Edirne province.
- Your Plovdiv doesn't have the city within its confines. It also doesn't follow the shape of the Maritsa-valley nicely.
- Sofya is barely within the province its named after.
- I don't understand why you didn't pick Serres/Siroz instead of Drama. Or Gümülcin. Also to split Selanik.
- The cities of the Morea are still in the incorrect location, those should be fixed.

Please take a look at my suggestion thread about Bulgaria/Greece in my signature.

This is a conservative version I made myself. A slightly more detailled one is posted in that thread of mine.

 

[starwarsbv]

In response to concerns voiced by @Mingmung, @JackAlNXT, and @navaluiki, I have redrawn some areas and made some changes.

Here is a new version, with cities shown.

Cities are approximate but should be mostly accurate. Arta is the name of the region; the province capital is not Arta.

There's very much wrong with this map (as some others pointed out, too).
- Lamia and the whole valley was under Ottoman control, one of the reasons why I don't support an Athens-split.
- Nafplio was one of many trading cities. If we include all of them, the map would be a mess. The devs also don't really support micro-provinces, unless it's a Free City or something.
- Dobruja has the wrong shape, it should go to the Danube-delta.
- Giving Constanta as capital of Dobruja is kind of odd, it was a and insignificant small town. It only gained prominence when it got into Romanian hands after the EU4 period and became one of the bigger towns of Romania. I'd personally go for Tolcu/Tulcea, it was a trading town under Ottoman control; known for its wool-trade.
- Tarnovo and Nigbolu are not the same; I'd split them in two.
- Kirkilise (as well as the current one in vanilla) isn't where the town is located. The town itself is actually located in the Edirne province.
- Your Plovdiv doesn't have the city within its confines. It also doesn't follow the shape of the Maritsa-valley nicely.
- Sofya is barely within the province its named after.
- I don't understand why you didn't pick Serres/Siroz instead of Drama. Or Gümülcin. Also to split Selanik.
- The cities of the Morea are still in the incorrect location, those should be fixed.

Please take a look at my suggestion thread about Bulgaria/Greece in my signature.

This is a conservative version I made myself. A slightly more detailled one is posted in that thread of mine.

-Yes Lamia was owned by the Ottomans at the point. I changed the capital to accommodate this. If absolutely necessary, the Boeotia province can be redrawn as well. But it's still pretty important that Athens is split into two.
-Nafplio, along with nearby Argos, was probably the one of most important of the Venetian Greek mainland holdings. Not all should be included, but Nafplio was important as Venice held it until 1540.
-Dobruja was mended a little, but the Danube delta is a large area and the province should include more of the region.
-The entire area wasn't too populated, and today Constanta is the most populous city in the region. It grew a lot towards the end of the game. Tulcea wasn't documented with that name until 1506 so it doesn't make sense to make that the capital.
-I dropped Tarnovo in favor of Pleven, but this is tenative.
-Kirkilise has been changed, see my details above.
-Plovdiv was fixed
-Sofya was also fixed
-I changed it to Strymon, with Komotini as the capital.
-Peloponnesian cities were changed.

I saw your suggestion before I made this post, but I thought it was too excessive. I tried to keep the addition of provinces to a minimum (which is why I didn't split Selanik- it just isn't necessary). You had some great ideas in your post but I took a different approach. I found the way you split up Bulgaria to be a bit strange, and it didn't seem to be parallel with shapes of other provinces. I appreciate the feedback.

 

[Mingmung]

In response to concerns voiced by @Mingmung, @JackAlNXT, and @navaluiki, I have redrawn some areas and made some changes.

Here is a new version, with cities shown.

Cities are approximate but should be mostly accurate. Arta is the name of the region; the province capital is not Arta.



-Yes Lamia was owned by the Ottomans at the point. I changed the capital to accommodate this. If absolutely necessary, the Boeotia province can be redrawn as well. But it's still pretty important that Athens is split into two.
-Nafplio, along with nearby Argos, was probably the one of most important of the Venetian Greek mainland holdings. Not all should be included, but Nafplio was important as Venice held it until 1540.
-Dobruja was mended a little, but the Danube delta is a large area and the province should include more of the region.
-The entire area wasn't too populated, and today Constanta is the most populous city in the region. It grew a lot towards the end of the game. Tulcea wasn't documented with that name until 1506 so it doesn't make sense to make that the capital.
-I dropped Tarnovo in favor of Pleven, but this is tenative.
-Kirkilise has been changed, see my details above.
-Plovdiv was fixed
-Sofya was also fixed
-I changed it to Strymon, with Komotini as the capital.
-Peloponnesian cities were changed.

I saw your suggestion before I made this post, but I thought it was too excessive. I tried to keep the addition of provinces to a minimum (which is why I didn't split Selanik- it just isn't necessary). You had some great ideas in your post but I took a different approach. I found the way you split up Bulgaria to be a bit strange, and it didn't seem to be parallel with shapes of other provinces. I appreciate the feedback.

Province-shapes are indeed always a point of discussion, unless there are clear maps, of course. So, I see your point about that. But geography should be taken into account, too. Your Filibe, while aesthetically more pleasing than mine, doesn't cover the Maritsa valley very much, but has more mountains added to it. Something which I just don't agree with.

Tulcea existed. Its modern name was first written down in the 15/16th century, but it existed. The Dobruja was not so populous, but I can look up some sources that mainly mention this town and the town of Babadag. The cities aren't even located in your Dobruja province. I'd also suggest renaming it, as a part of the region is on the Silistre province.

I also wonder why you use the name of a river for a province (Strymon). It was not a name used by the Ottoman administration. Drama/Serres/Selanik (and their Ottoman Turkish localisation, in case I missed that with the first two) are names used for those areas; after the cities. Maybe a bit dull, but still.

In case of Arta; it was the "capital" of the Tocco family and also the name of the province, why use Vonitsa?

I wonder why it's important that Athens gets split. We'd turn up with two micro-provinces if we split it and take Ottoman control of the valley where Neopatras and Lamia are located into account. Yes, Neopatras was also under Ottoman control; the whole Spercheios river valley was.

Nigbolu was a sanjak; an administrative unit. I don't understand why you added Pleven instead? Even Tarnovo/Tirnova had more historical worth.

Lastly; Burgas. Why Burgas? It was nothing in 1444. Most of its fame was after the EU4 timeline.

 

[Funlover]

The Balkan area of Europe really needs a face lift especially Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia too, along with Montenegro with Kotor being added.

 

[Furuderikas]

The city of Salonica was actually a Sephardic majority for several centuries, it would be interesting to split the province to represent that via an event converting it.

 

[starwarsbv]

Province-shapes are indeed always a point of discussion, unless there are clear maps, of course. So, I see your point about that. But geography should be taken into account, too. Your Filibe, while aesthetically more pleasing than mine, doesn't cover the Maritsa valley very much, but has more mountains added to it. Something which I just don't agree with.

The river is split mostly between Strymon and İslimye (Sliven).

Provinces don't necessarily need to be homogeneous in the terrain they cover. I drew these provinces with a focus of them properly fitting together and pleasing aesthetic, which is something they have accomplished.

Tulcea existed. Its modern name was first written down in the 15/16th century, but it existed. The Dobruja was not so populous, but I can look up some sources that mainly mention this town and the town of Babadag. The cities aren't even located in your Dobruja province. I'd also suggest renaming it, as a part of the region is on the Silistre province.

Constanta also existed. Its history goes back to the Roman times, but it was founded much earlier. It got its name during the Roman times as well.

I also wonder why you use the name of a river for a province (Strymon). It was not a name used by the Ottoman administration. Drama/Serres/Selanik (and their Ottoman Turkish localisation, in case I missed that with the first two) are names used for those areas; after the cities. Maybe a bit dull, but still.

Strymon was the name of a Byzantine theme there, which is why I chose it.

In case of Arta; it was the "capital" of the Tocco family and also the name of the province, why use Vonitsa?

Vonitsa was the final capital of the Despotate of Epirus, which is why it makes sense to use it: it's the city they held the longest.

I wonder why it's important that Athens gets split. We'd turn up with two micro-provinces if we split it and take Ottoman control of the valley where Neopatras and Lamia are located into account. Yes, Neopatras was also under Ottoman control; the whole Spercheios river valley was.

Nigbolu was a sanjak; an administrative unit. I don't understand why you added Pleven instead? Even Tarnovo/Tirnova had more historical worth.

It had significant military significance, being a major fort during the Bulgarian Empires. It had just as much regional significance as Nikopol, but perhaps Tarnovo was important to a greater extent.

Lastly; Burgas. Why Burgas? It was nothing in 1444. Most of its fame was after the EU4 timeline.

Burgas was indeed an important city on the Black Sea coast, but it's valid to say there were more important towns. Perhaps Pomorie, Sozopol, or Nesebar would be more fitting.

 

[Mingmung]

The river is split mostly between Strymon and İslimye (Sliven).

Provinces don't necessarily need to be homogeneous in the terrain they cover. I drew these provinces with a focus of them properly fitting together and pleasing aesthetic, which is something they have accomplished.

Constanta also existed. Its history goes back to the Roman times, but it was founded much earlier. It got its name during the Roman times as well.

Strymon was the name of a Byzantine theme there, which is why I chose it.

Vonitsa was the final capital of the Despotate of Epirus, which is why it makes sense to use it: it's the city they held the longest.

It had significant military significance, being a major fort during the Bulgarian Empires. It had just as much regional significance as Nikopol, but perhaps Tarnovo was important to a greater extent.

Burgas was indeed an important city on the Black Sea coast, but it's valid to say there were more important towns. Perhaps Pomorie, Sozopol, or Nesebar would be more fitting.

- I know Constanta existed, but it was far from the town it finally became. Anyway, you did see my points about some northern towns belonging to Ottoman Dobruja which are still in your Bessarabia?
- Why use the name of a Byzantine Theme for an Ottoman province? That's almost like calling Aachen "Aix-la-Chapelle" when it's under Prussian control.
- Vonitsa was the last castle the Tocco's retreated to, after they lost Arta. Which is also the name for the province and a more sizeable town.
- We're talking Ottoman times. Pleven was not a sanjak or anything. Ottoman provinces should be used if available, they occupied all of Bulgaria during EU4 times, anyway. The times of the Bulgarian Empires are far past.


EDIT: Filibe is also still not located in the province its named after, or barely at the edge.

 

[withche.07]

Athens = Atina in Turkish.
I also think Dobruca to be added in region with claim, Despotate of Dobruja (or Beylik of Dobruja)

 

[starwarsbv]

- I know Constanta existed, but it was far from the town it finally became. Anyway, you did see my points about some northern towns belonging to Ottoman Dobruja which are still in your Bessarabia?
- Why use the name of a Byzantine Theme for an Ottoman province? That's almost like calling Aachen "Aix-la-Chapelle" when it's under Prussian control.
- Vonitsa was the last castle the Tocco's retreated to, after they lost Arta. Which is also the name for the province and a more sizeable town.
- We're talking Ottoman times. Pleven was not a sanjak or anything. Ottoman provinces should be used if available, they occupied all of Bulgaria during EU4 times, anyway. The times of the Bulgarian Empires are far past.

EDIT: Filibe is also still not located in the province its named after, or barely at the edge.

-If Constanta existed, and it was of some importance at the time (which is was), then what is wrong with using it as the capital city of the province? I know you love the idea of using Tulcea for some reason, maybe you're from there. But Constanta has historical significance from Roman times and would make an excellent capital. There are hundreds of towns controlled by the Ottomans that aren't portrayed in the game, and showing those could make the province of Dobruja look strange, which I'm very much against. The shape of Dubruja is fine the way it is drawn.
-It would be called Siroz when under Ottoman control, which is a translation of Serres.
-I'll switch Vonitsa for Arta.
-I reconsidered. It'll be changed to Tarnovo and its appropriate Turkish translation.

Athens = Atina in Turkish.
I also think Dobruca to be added in region with claim, Despotate of Dobruja (or Beylik of Dobruja)

Thank you, I couldn't find any translation for Athens and I couldn't remember what it was in-game.

If new tags were to be added, the Despotate of Dobruja would be an excellent candidate because it was finished off by the Ottomans after the Battle of Varna, which means it would have existed in the 1444 start.

 

[Greece stronk]

Other people have commented on important problems, so I just have two small corrections:
1) Boulgaria and Moesia were large themes that encompassed more than the proposed provinces. For the first one, Plovdiv is actually an evolution of the Greek name Philippopolis (Kathareuousa)/Philippoupoli (Demotic).
2) The capital of the Duchy of Athens was Thebes, not Athens, but it isn't even included in the suggestion. It's in the province of Boeotia. Moreover, Athens wasn't that important in the time period, and so I think the development suggested is too high (it's higher than Nafplio).

 

[Mingmung]

- The towns of Tolcu and Isaccea are still not within your Dobruja province, neither is the delta itself.
- Serres/Siroz is located within your Selanik province...

Thebes was also plundered and occupied by some forces of the Despotate of the Morea (which is kind of hard to reflect in-game), until 1445 or something. Athens is fine as capital. It was the actual capital most of the time, too. @Greece stronk

 

[Entrone]

I agree that Nafplio could be changed to a Corinth province, which could be venetian/vassal at the start of the game.
I also agree on that the Aegean sea needs more island provinced, Lemnos would be a welcome addition, and also, the Ionian Islands and Corfu could be split. MAybe even Crete, but I'm not sure about that.

 

[starwarsbv]

- The towns of Tolcu and Isaccea are still not within your Dobruja province, neither is the delta itself.
- Serres/Siroz is located within your Selanik province...

I updated the shape of Strymon to include Serres. I also updated the cities map to include Thebes.

Here is an update to Dobruja (I did this superately because the area was cropped out in my other maps)

The old border is shown as a dotted line.

I agree that Nafplio could be changed to a Corinth province, which could be venetian/vassal at the start of the game.
I also agree on that the Aegean sea needs more island provinced, Lemnos would be a welcome addition, and also, the Ionian Islands and Corfu could be split. MAybe even Crete, but I'm not sure about that.

I am going to leave Nafplio as it is because many are against Venice getting more land in Greece, especially because it was a Thalassocratic nation and had so much.

I agree there should be more islands (the Balearic Islands have 3 islands now, we should do the same for the Aegean and Ionian). Any specific suggestions for more Greek Islands?

 

[Mingmung]

Ibiza was an exception, nothing more.

 

[navaluiki]

Ibiza was an exception, nothing more.

And a bad one also, as it came at the cost of not having more provinces in other regions of Spain