Manus and Goods Demand

[unmerged(4211)]

I have read some comments here about manus causing a demand "explosion". Can someone provide some details. If, for example, I build goods manus in all my cloth producing provinces, will that raise the demand of cotton and wool. I have tinkered with this and I can't see any effect that could be just as easily explained by the passage of time and pop growth.

Would it work like this? Manus in cloth increase cotton demand, which then increases demand for slaves? Or is all of the demand stuff pretty well hardcoded with little distinction based on what the player does?

v1.08 SP

 

[labalag]

Imagine this: when you build manus, they're gonna need cloth right, thus the demands gonna rise, also increasing the price of cloth (simple economics), and thus increasing the values of cot's trading cloth...)

The demand for slaves will go up ( and price ) if you colonize more cotton (and some others too) producing provinces, it won't IIRC go up if you build goodmanu's...

Atleast that's what i could deduct from the tooltips...

 

[unmerged(16441)]

If you click on the picture of a commodity a certain province produces you'll see a screen giving its basic price, market price, demand and supply. Hover over "demand" and it will list all factors affecting demand for this commodity. For instance (from memory), demand for spices, china, ivory and furs increases as you promote more chief judges and governors; demand for iron and copper increases as you get more weapon manufactories and barracks; demand for sugar and wine grows as you get more refineries and so on.

Cotton is a bit broken in a sense that demand for it is supposed to grow as more cloth provinces are colonized. Alas, there aren't any colonizable cloth provinces

 

[unmerged(4211)]

Appreciate the tool tip tip. Still, I notice that even though there aren't any cloth producing provinces that can be colonialized, the demand for cotton does go up. Why, who knows.

Funny thing as I was checking this, I loaded a game on very hard to check cotton demand, then loaded a save from a different game that was played on an easier level (later date) and got about 25 war declarations!

Reload EU2 at your own risk, badboys.

Badboys, badboys, what you gonna do
What you gonna do when they come for you...

 

[General Guisan]

Appreciate the tool tip tip. Still, I notice that even though there aren't any cloth producing provinces that can be colonialized, the demand for cotton does go up. Why, who knows.

Well, must provinces in EUII that produces clothes are quite rich and population-wise large, there are three large regions, flandern, northern germany and poland. While the first two of them will usually growing fast, getting manus, beeing next to CoTs(at least the dutch ones) only the polish ones probably won't. So this means, at least a growing at around 5% per 10 years populationwise, later even more. Economical, this means also a slow, but steadily grow in the demand for cotton, as more and more the production of the clothes are advancing due to tech advantage in infra. If there is a human player, you should have reached infra 5 at around 1520(depends which country) which means, if you're at the same time ruller over the rich lands of Holland and Northern Germany, you're demand for cotton will already be fairly high. And there are not that many of cotton provinces, at least much less than of other valuable goods like sugar or furs.

So I don't think this thing is broken at all, it works afaik perfect. Most ressources were produced in the colonies of the british empire (for example) then shipped to the motherland, made into the finished products (like clothes) and then shipped back to the colonies (or to Africa, for trading against slaves, this was the triangle trade of mostly the 17th century. Probably you had this in school as well. Otherwise you should blame your teacher

 

[unmerged(31425)]

Goods manus also affect the demand for cotton, just like refineries affect the demand for sugar. BTW, both are capped at 150%.

The regular trade goods are capped at 100% demand only and only go up, IIRC(I might be wrong on this one), by a rate of +1% demand per 2 manus in the game.

The cotton and sugar commodities go up approximately +1% per goods and refinery manus respectively. It sometimes goes up +0% and sometimes +2% instead. But it is a consistent pattern not random. Also cloth goes up approximately +1% per goods manu in the game too, and I believe he's capped at 100%, but I'm not 100% sure on that one.

Iron, naval supplies, and Copper are a different group too. They go up at about the same rate as cotton and sugar do, with their appropriate demand affecters. I don't know what they are capped at, as I've never seen them at 100% demand or higher yet. I suspect that their demand is capped at 100% like the regular goods.

The luxury goods are a sperate group and they can go all the way up to 200% demand. They increase in demand by IIRC +1% per cheif judge aka legal council(LC) and +1% per governor too. Thus they are the easiest to spike and have the largest capacity demand spiking too.

Slaves go up 10% in demand per sugar province colonized. It only has to be 100 population or less even. In fact IIRC TPs increase it as well. I think the cotton was +5% per province and same with tobacco. Slaves can go up to 200% demand.

I actually had most of this written down at one point in time but I don't remember where I put the piece of paper. So sorry if I'm a bit vague on the matter. Ya that's right IDLF does run tests from time to time contrary to what some other folks may like to imply.

Really someone ought to make a FAQ on demand modifications. It's not really difficult to setup tests to figure them out.

Luxury goods = furs, ivory, china goods, spice, tobacco, coffee, and tea.

Regular goods = fish, grain, salt, wine, and wool.

All of the commodities in these 2 respective groups are affected in demand in the same way as the others in the same group.

 

[unmerged(4211)]

Thanks for the reply...

really appreciate it, cause I know you know your stuff IDLF. And I have to admit feeling a special kinship to you because I don't like facts either.

:rofl:

Oh, I'm sorry, but you have to admit that was a good zinger he used on you. Please don't let that stuff get you down. Mostly, both of you were talking over my head but I found it entertaining.

 

[Marshall Thomas]

What about the new EP commodities? Obviously, luxury goods are in the luxury group- but what about bee's wax?

 

[unmerged(31425)]

What about the new EP commodities? Obviously, luxury goods are in the luxury group- but what about bee's wax?

Wax and gems are luxury goods.

 

[Marshall Thomas]

So do the different goods in each "good's group" always have the same demand percentage? For example, do furs, ivory, spices, gems, and luxury goods always have the demand- as it is the same factors which increase their demand. Supply is of course different for each as it depends on the number of producing provinces.

When provinces producing a specific good increase signifigantly in population- the production of the good increases. But does this population increase effect the supply, demand, or value of the product or good?

What is effected by population size and increase?

 

[unmerged(9404)]

I actually had most of this written down at one point in time but I don't remember where I put the piece of paper. So sorry if I'm a bit vague on the matter.

Do you have more/better information than this post? It would be great if you could dig up that piece of paper (Afterall you did promise to post your results from tests on demand in post 26 of the same thread )

 

[unmerged(31425)]

Do you have more/better information than this post? It would be great if you could dig up that piece of paper (Afterall you did promise to post your results from tests on demand in post 26 of the same thread )

I'd rather just run a bunch of tests on the matter. Let me so what I can do and I'll post a a new thread as a prerequisite discussion for a FAQ post. Give me a few days for this. I'd like to put alot of information in the first post and some key questions for things I can't pinpoint easily.

The problem is that there are alot more things you can catalog on this matter than I think people may be aware of. Also some the demands aren't 100% precise. Like if a building modifies a demand by 1%, it may after 3 of them built modify it 0% then after say 3 more modify it 2%. So it should be understood that any demand modification amounts I'd give aren't 100% precise but are roughly the amount modified instead, as I don't know the precise math involved.

 

[unmerged(3931)]

Slaves go up 10% in demand per sugar province colonized. It only has to be 100 population or less even. In fact IIRC TPs increase it as well. I think the cotton was +5% per province and same with tobacco. Slaves can go up to 200% demand.

Something is wrong or incomplete there since demand for slaves would always be up to 200% by mid-game. I am looking at a save game in 1719 and there is only 142% demand for slaves with the entire Caribbean colonized plus some of Brazil as well.

Like if a building modifies a demand by 1%, it may after 3 of them built modify it 0% then after say 3 more modify it 2%. So it should be understood that any demand modification amounts I'd give aren't 100% precise but are roughly the amount modified instead, as I don't know the precise math involved.

The inconsistencies in percentages likely evolve from floating-point and truncation errors in computerized math. Floating-point numbers are represented in binary and one fifth is a repeating value past the binary point (1/5 = 0.001100110011...). So decimal values, having least common denominators of 1/2 and 1/5, are not always correctly represented in binary and may fall just a hair short of the intended value. When the binary floating-point number is converted to decimal after multiplying by 100 and then truncating to get the percentage, the value might just be a little less than it should be, showing an error of 1%.

You see these types of errors in the modified tax value calculations. With no other modifiers, the tax you get from an incorrect culture province is -30% resulting in 69% tax. The actual tax you get is actually just a hair less than 70%. For most practical purposes you get 70% of tax, but that little bit less hurts build capacity at times. The display is 1% incorrect at 69%, however the actual effect is closer to 70%, just not quite that much.

I suspect you see the same floating-point errors with the manufactories and demand percentages. The values may go up according to the 1% increase but you do not see the 1% increase being displayed properly. You could probably test this out by drastically increasing the base cost of goods by x1000 or more and then observing the impact on the values of the goods instead of the percentages. A similar test on base tax shows the floating-point error is something like 0.000000005d in modified tax.

These floating-point errors are the reason that military units do not follow the cost outlines the programmers documented for the different DP sliders and the reason that the DIP penalty/bonus varies from -3 to +2 between zero Aristocracy and full Aristocracy, not -2 to +2 as documented. Programmers should really be aware of these simple errors and either nudge their floating-point numbers up a little to compensate before truncating or use long integer math that assumes a fixed decimal point. There is no reason that EU2 should be using floating-point numbers at all. There is nothing in the game that would not be better represented with long integer math with assumed fixed decimals. Integer math is faster, so the CPU requirements are less when doing a lot of integer math compared to floating-point math. EU2 could have easily been made to run on slower systems.

 

[unmerged(31425)]

Something is wrong or incomplete there since demand for slaves would always be up to 200% by mid-game. I am looking at a save game in 1719 and there is only 142% demand for slaves with the entire Caribbean colonized plus some of Brazil as well.

LOL. Let me guess, this is your Xhosa game?

It's either non-Christians or non-Europeans, not sure which, but if they own a sugar, tobacco, or cotton province, it only increases the demand for slaves by 1%. I ran into this alot when re-working the setup for EP. Anyways, I'll figure out which one it is and Ill put it in the supply/demands FAQ. Good thing you pointed this out. I had forgotten all about it.

 

[unmerged(3931)]

Yes, Xhosa owns nearly the entire world. I ran into the same thing in my Benin game. I had lots of income from slaves. Then when I started capturing the valuable sugar colonies, my economy went south. I could not figure out why taking sugar colonies would cause demand for slaves to decrease.

BTW: I added to my post above.

 

[DSYoungEsq]

Remember to look at the data AFTER a month has passed from reload. The game recalcs at that point.

 

[unmerged(3931)]

Remember to look at the data AFTER a month has passed from reload. The game recalcs at that point.

You are right, it is probably best to look at the recalculated value at the start of a new month. However, after waiting for the recalculation, I see the same value for demand of slaves, 142%.

 

[Marshall Thomas]

I'm afraid my question was overlooked. Would someone please go back to #10? Thanks

 

[unmerged(9404)]

I'm afraid my question was overlooked. Would someone please go back to #10? Thanks

The question was partially answered by me if you clicked the link.

So do the different goods in each "good's group" always have the same demand percentage? For example, do furs, ivory, spices, gems, and luxury goods always have the demand- as it is the same factors which increase their demand. Supply is of course different for each as it depends on the number of producing provinces.

Uncertain, but probably yes. That's one of the questions a FAQ could answer.

When provinces producing a specific good increase signifigantly in population- the production of the good increases. But does this population increase effect the supply, demand, or value of the product or good?

Check the link. demand or supply is dependant on amount of occupied provinces, regardless of i\size, even a tp counts.

What is effected by population size and increase?

Conversion, income and MP, check the faqs.
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157982
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157925
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72487