• Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Matnjord

Captain
51 Badges
Aug 22, 2010
464
56
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
The war looks more like the italian front of WWI than anything else...

Except that the roles are reversed here. It's the Austrians who are constantly trying to break through the Isonzo with our brave Loki holding them off for who knows how long. Let's hope the Russians take the hint and finally grab this occasion to back stab Austria.

What's the Austrian NM like? It must around be 75 right? With an oversized army and a mediocre economy they should sooner or later collapse I hope. I give them (optimistically) one year (summer 1880) before they won't be able to stop you marching on Wien.

In real life I'd guess the Austrians would have already given up, surely Northern Italy isn't worth almost a million casualties and counting. With the added threat of Russia and Prussia (not the Ottomans anymore of course) staying longer in this war would be begging for a disaster.
 
Last edited:

Stuyvesant

Field Marshal
40 Badges
Dec 7, 2002
6.230
44
Visit site
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I agree with Matnjord: a lot like World War I, but it's the Austrians who are battering themselves senseless against your lines. At this point, I suspect that their bleeding of NM is probably the most enduring effect of all these battles. The casualties are horrendous, yes, but the Austrians seem to have enough bodies to keep up the attrition for a while (and the more people/elements you kill, the less their supply becomes a problem). So hopefully all the NM lost will start to hurt them soon.
 

Ricardo Rolo

Captain
10 Badges
Jun 5, 2011
411
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
Really, really ugly casualties on both sides. The real question if if you can rest your units enough and have enough replacements to keep rotating them, since the Austrians still have enough to make the odds not too bright.

And it would be really nice if you could open a Vienna push from the Adriatic, but I assume that is still far out of the realms of the possible :/
 

Director

Maestro
35 Badges
Aug 13, 2002
5.093
1.789
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
With those levels of casualties for negligible gains one would certainly hope that Austrian national morale would crack, and crack in time to do you some good. But given the performance of the Ottomans in your first Balkan war, one must defer hope until the evidence shows it is attainable. I quite agree with the previous posters that you need Russia to take a hand but I suspect you will have to fight on without them. A Russian back-stab would benefit you and likely gain the Russians a sweeping victory, but might also bring in the Prussians, which could be bad. My advice here is fight until you win or are sure you will lose, and if the latter then don't prolong the war overmuch.

Wow. Just... wow. A human player would have folded or found a way around your position by now, but the AI just keeps on coming. It is greatly to be regretted that your amphibious operations in Dalmatia didn't draw at least a corps away from the Bloody Catanaccios - I had high hopes for that manuever but the AI seems, well, fixated. The Austrians keep reaching for a bigger hammer, and so far they have been able to find one...

So... if the Austrians keep coming, can you hold? And how soon can those two new infantry corps get up to the front?
 

Levertov

Private
39 Badges
Nov 17, 2012
12
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
Maybe you can single-handedly cause WWI by entering Russia, Prussia, and your French allies? :)
 

loki100

Field Marshal
22 Badges
Jul 1, 2008
7.559
6
  • Rome Gold
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Rise of Prussia
The war looks more like the italian front of WWI than anything else...
Except that the roles are reversed here. It's the Austrians who are constantly trying to break through the Isonzo with our brave Loki holding them off for who knows how long. Let's hope the Russians take the hint and finally grab this occasion to back stab Austria.

What's the Austrian NM like? It must around be 75 right? With an oversized army and a mediocre economy they should sooner or later collapse I hope. I give them (optimistically) one year (summer 1880) before they won't be able to stop you marching on Wien.

In real life I'd guess the Austrians would have already given up, surely Northern Italy isn't worth almost a million casualties and counting. With the added threat of Russia and Prussia (not the Ottomans anymore of course) staying longer in this war would be begging for a disaster.

I think the WW1 analogy is perfect. Generally the PoN battle resolution seems to yield high losses (high attack values against unprotected targets, plus often quite large armies), what I am showing here is that linked to leadership+terrain+the defense bonus creates the means to stop an offensive dead in its tracks. At the time, the European powers tended to ignore the implications of the American Civil War (dismissing it as a war of armed mobs) and read too much into the limited wars in Europe. But already everyone is using rifles, there are crude machine guns and artillery is starting to kill at range (even if still using direct fire) so all the signs were there.

As to the war ending, if I win big time, but the only way to convince the game engine is to utterly crush Austria I will intervene to end it, using a combination of a war score related peace and some additional swaps. I am starting to think a fair prize is the two Po provinces and the Sud Tirol.

I agree with Matnjord: a lot like World War I, but it's the Austrians who are battering themselves senseless against your lines. At this point, I suspect that their bleeding of NM is probably the most enduring effect of all these battles. The casualties are horrendous, yes, but the Austrians seem to have enough bodies to keep up the attrition for a while (and the more people/elements you kill, the less their supply becomes a problem). So hopefully all the NM lost will start to hurt them soon.

Really, really ugly casualties on both sides. The real question if if you can rest your units enough and have enough replacements to keep rotating them, since the Austrians still have enough to make the odds not too bright.

And it would be really nice if you could open a Vienna push from the Adriatic, but I assume that is still far out of the realms of the possible :/

I think I have blunted their opening wave (problem is they get more soon), so I need to be less cautious. But even so, I just don't dare split my armies up, they have enough, especially out of the constricted space of the Alps, to really overwhelm an isolated army if they get lucky.

With those levels of casualties for negligible gains one would certainly hope that Austrian national morale would crack, and crack in time to do you some good. But given the performance of the Ottomans in your first Balkan war, one must defer hope until the evidence shows it is attainable. I quite agree with the previous posters that you need Russia to take a hand but I suspect you will have to fight on without them. A Russian back-stab would benefit you and likely gain the Russians a sweeping victory, but might also bring in the Prussians, which could be bad. My advice here is fight until you win or are sure you will lose, and if the latter then don't prolong the war overmuch.

Wow. Just... wow. A human player would have folded or found a way around your position by now, but the AI just keeps on coming. It is greatly to be regretted that your amphibious operations in Dalmatia didn't draw at least a corps away from the Bloody Catanaccios - I had high hopes for that manuever but the AI seems, well, fixated. The Austrians keep reaching for a bigger hammer, and so far they have been able to find one...

So... if the Austrians keep coming, can you hold? And how soon can those two new infantry corps get up to the front?

Again agree. I can't see a human player either making their attacks or carrying on the war. It would be time to bow to the forces of nationalism and accept a loss of their final Italian lands.

Fortunately in June they broke off - I think their advanced army was running low on supply and ammo (I had a few problems but as I held the province I could send supply wagons back and forth - harder to do if you are on the offensive). This allows me to re-organise and bring up fresh forces (& send the worst mauled ones to the rear).

July will see a return to the slaughter though. They have little scope for movement, I guess going for Venezia improves the terrain but as we will see, my qualitative advantage can be pretty deadly in open terrain as well.

Prussia seems to have passed on this war - though their units carry on wandering around the battlefields causing confusion. They still have a defensive alliance but I'm not sure that PoN has a 'great war' mechanism. There is a script sequence around the historic WW1 (which I have heard is not working), but a bit like a late game EU2, all of a sudden the historic events make no sense in the world you have forged. So I feel the need for an end game climatic war. Italy/France/Russia vs the Germans and the Brits would make some sense.

Maybe you can single-handedly cause WWI by entering Russia, Prussia, and your French allies? :)

No, Italia fa di solo, I actually briefly start wondering if I need allies ... then I change my mind again. But I do think this Europe is setting up for a Franco-italian-Russian settling of scores with our Germanic neighbours at some stage.
 
Last edited:

loki100

Field Marshal
22 Badges
Jul 1, 2008
7.559
6
  • Rome Gold
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Rise of Prussia
June 1879, a short lull

This is going to be a short update as I have all my images organised in 6 month blocks, but in any case it is easier to keep the flow going if I do little and often. Also allows a brief glimpse of the world beyond the bloodstained Dolomites.

The colonial war in E Africa grinds on. Losses fail to register compared to those in Europe but I have more or less regained the coast and am pushing a bit inland. Tanga is the only coastal province I don’t hold and is horrible jungle terrain. Finding the enemy, never mind winning a battle is a challenge.



Till the European war is resolved my intent here is low key. I’ll establish a decent line, build up forts, depots and harbours and wait.

In the Dolomites, there is one sharp battle as the Austrians pull back. The Italians do not try to interfere with their retreat..



While the marines hold off another attack at Split



However, it appears as if the Austrians have had enough for now



My guess is the attacking formation was running out of supply (3rd blue bar) and had to fall back, equally it couldn’t take on replacements while on the offensive in a province I hold. However, despite the losses, I am mostly on top of the replacement costs:



My ability to keep my army at or near full strength can be seen in the OOB:



Equally 5 combat formations are now veterans/experienced (they are at 40% of the scale – new units start between 0-10) and that is yet another bonus in combat. Less important, but note that almost all my artillery formations are now veteran.

The population remains supportive of the war effort



In effect, the only dissent is in the 3 ‘Italian’ provinces I have occupied – Lombardia, SudTirol/Alto Adige and Venezia (where no doubt they are whinging at being expected to pronounce their z properly). The Po provinces also are still rather pro-rebel. Note that the growth rates are mostly up around 3% (3rd col from the right) apart from in SudTirol. Anyone would think the war was putting them off.

And losses for both sides reflect the nature of the war in the last 3 months.



So I am now #2 in the world. Obviously my progress has made everyone note just how important Italy really is (& only 29,000 behind Britain). Losses in the war have been horrendous. I’ve lost 350,000 (some will have been in the colonies but that will be a minor portion), the Austrians close to 1 million (& another 170,000 prisoners). My NM is up to 174 and they are at 78. 65 is the critical point at which they break but that ratio goes a long way to explaining my dominance on the battlefield.

So with nothing decided it is time to formulate my plans for the second half of 1879. I am in a near ideal position. I am on the defence (at a time period when the defence holds all the advantages), with an increasingly veteran army (and good commanders, two of whom are 6-7-7 now), a strong economy and general popular support for the war. My opponent is fielding reserve formations, attacking easily defended positions and with dwindling national enthusiasm. Equally clearly my artillery is queen of the battlefield, they may have more but a combination of experience and equipment makes the ranged fire phases very one sided.

However, I am still outnumbered (2-1 in power, probably 3-1 in numbers), but I think it is time to move out of my defensive shell. I still need to keep formations mutually supporting but I think I can risk a bit more manoeuvre now.

As a wider aside, as people have noted, a human Austrian player would probably give me the Po valley now. They clearly can’t retake it militarily, the world accepts my claims and time is on my side. If it becomes clear that carrying on the war will simply utterly wreck Austria, I’ll step in to enforce a reasonable deal (at the moment all they are offering are cash reparations). I think they are times when you need to save the AI from itself.

More generally, note the Anglo-Prussian war carries on, Prussia is clearly winning but I don’t have a clue where the war is actually being waged.
 
Last edited:

Powloon

First Lieutenant
6 Badges
Sep 24, 2007
280
0
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
Things are looking good well at least if you are not one of the 350,000 dead Italians! I think you are correct in your interpretation basically all the elements except numbers are on your side morale, leadership, technology, firepower and experience. Will be interesting to see what happens when you advance and whether the Austrians are able to take advantage of the frontage rules to deploy those extra men.
 
Last edited:

Dewirix

Historically plausible
80 Badges
Feb 6, 2010
2.029
25
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Austria's two-to-one power lead means that they've already lost about the equivalent pwr of your entire army so far. If they couldn't win when they had a three-to-one advantage, I can't really see any way they can do it now.

That said, they'll be on the defensive from now on, meaning it's time to see how much of your gains to date have been due to advantages inherent to the defender.

I wonder what the socio-political atmosphere of Italy would be like in these circumstances. Your losses are horrendous by nineteenth century standards (and Austria's are pretty bad by 20th century standards, they've lost about the same in the past year as they did on average per year in WWI). However bad the war has been, Italy has convincingly made the case for being regarded as a Great Power in its own right. Unlike the historical risorgimento, your Italy has gone it alone and looks to be winning.
 

calestos

Ven aqui chaquetera
7 Badges
Oct 4, 2005
1.931
2.184
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
You need only few battles to destroy their NM.
 

Ricardo Rolo

Captain
10 Badges
Jun 5, 2011
411
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
I think that your assessment of the situation is correct: you destroyed a third of their army and there is no way that they will be able to dislodge you from the defensive positions you are in. Besides your army is veteran compared with the rookies Austria is tossing you at the bucketload and your commanders are top of the notch ( especially good ol' G-man ) ... not mentioning the difference in NM, both in absolute numbers and in current evolution trend. You can easily win this war at this point just by sitting in where you are and wait for the Austrians to come at you a couple of times more ... So why not do it instead of risking a attack ?

I think that the answer is in what your objectives in the medium run are. Your losses are still high enough to take quite a time to recover and you already mentioned that you want to move against Egypt soon. I assume you still want to give a couple more of bites in the Ottomans as soon as it is possible, so other war slotted. This points for a closeup of this war as soon as possible... so IMHO you should prepare to march against Vienna ASAP.

Other thing to consider is how wrecked you want Austria to be after this war ... the exact same situation than you had regarding the first Ottoman war, where you wanted them to be strong enough to not cave against the Russians. In spite of a rebel infested Austria could give some interesting opportunities to a nº2 of the world Italy, do you really want them completely wrecked at this point ? ...
 

Stuyvesant

Field Marshal
40 Badges
Dec 7, 2002
6.230
44
Visit site
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Won't moving out of your mountain killzones make you vulnerable to those two large Austrian armies? I know your armies are better - technology, leaders, experience, NM, the lot - but I see a 9,000 power stack and a 10,000 power stack. If you don't have the advantages of terrain and being on the defense, won't that be a bit much to tackle with your roughly 5,000 power armies?

Since the AI seems perfectly content to mirror the real-life Italian front in World War I with endless assaults on your well-entrenched positions, I would let them. Give them a turn or two to replenish and I'm sure they'll be back - the AI does not seem to have any other plans.

Ricardo Rolo makes good points about not wrecking the Austrians too much, which might be another reason to keep this war relatively low-key by simply sitting in your foxholes and letting the Austrians come at you, at their own pace. ;)
 

Narwhal

Lt. General
21 Badges
Jul 30, 2009
1.586
119
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • 500k Club
  • Rome Gold
  • Penumbra - Black Plague
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • East India Company
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 200k Club
  • Elven Legacy Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
Loki, if you give me the AUS files, I can give your Italians a run for their money :)
 

loki100

Field Marshal
22 Badges
Jul 1, 2008
7.559
6
  • Rome Gold
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Rise of Prussia
Loki, if you give me the AUS files, I can give your Italians a run for their money :)

wonderful offer but a wee bit too late I fear, I ended the war with some sessions over last weekend. But if I get into another serious war I'll take you up

A general statement - please do not delete for having external links (at least without asking me why first?)

Some of you (esp those who hang around both the AGEOD and the Paradox forums) will be aware that PI and AGEOD went their separate ways late last year. Equally that since then, AGEOD have joined up with the Slitherine/Matrix group early this year (makes sense as they too do niche, turn based games). Now PI have given AGEOD the licence back for PoN (& RoP) and all the AGEOD forums on the PI section are being closed. The latest note being:

This forum will close in about 1 week. I would start copying anything you want to the AGEOD forums right away. You can PM me if you have any questions.

Best Regards
BjornB

Now I've asked about where that leaves the AGEOD AARs (as, & I think this reflects how PoN was sold, there is no PoN AAR thread on the AGEOD forum). But depending, I may end up shifting this over there. Ideally as dual posting, but if this ends up in the OT forum, then purely on the AGEOD forum.

I know external links are against Paradox policy, but if the goal is a clean break, I'd at least like readers to know where this ended up as opposed to thinking it was just abandoned.

I'll do proper feedback with the next update.
 
Last edited:

Powloon

First Lieutenant
6 Badges
Sep 24, 2007
280
0
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
I think they were overstating the word migration in the original paradox announcement. That implies the forum is going to move somewhere to me it looks like they are simply turning it off and archiving the forum. Not the best situation particularly for you with 26 pages of posts to your name.
 

Stuyvesant

Field Marshal
40 Badges
Dec 7, 2002
6.230
44
Visit site
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Well, I hope you can continue to post the AAR here, but if not, then I'm sure I can find it on the AGEOD forums. Would finally spur me into posting over there. ;)

I don't see what you gain from even a moderately competent Austria. Wreck 'em.

My, good sir, you are positively bellicose! I think a fatally weakened Austria in itself is not a problem for loki, but it could easily lead to an even stronger Russia and/or Prussia. Russia already is a competitor for the carcass of the Ottoman Empire, so there's no need for them to gorge themselves on the Austrian cadaver as well. Prussia... Well, I assume keeping Prussia from getting too big for its boots is always a good thing.

Last thing we'd want is a Prussia/Germany that decides to annex the Austrian Alps and then becomes an uncomfortable neighbor to La Bella Italia.

Of course, I don't actually play the game, so what do I know? But to me a weak, but not too weak, Austria is infinitely preferable to an overpowered Russia or Prussia as Italy's northeastern neighbor. :)
 

Director

Maestro
35 Badges
Aug 13, 2002
5.093
1.789
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
I respectfully disagree: the last thing Italy needs is an allied Prussia with a decently-strong Austria who is wounded but not fatally weakened. The Ottomans will be no future threat, but an Austria intent upon revanche very well could be. As the proverb says, "Do no man a small harm."

If Prussia and Russia divide the carcass, Italy will get a chunk and the remaining rump will help shield italy from Prussia. Italy will then likely be able to ally with one of the other two, or will - under loki's benign guidance - be able to stand up for herself.

There is in my opinion no polity in Europe more disposable than Austria, no nation whose disappearance would cause less concern.

Wreck 'em.
 

loki100

Field Marshal
22 Badges
Jul 1, 2008
7.559
6
  • Rome Gold
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Rise of Prussia
Things are looking good well at least if you are not one of the 350,000 dead Italians! I think you are correct in your interpretation basically all the elements except numbers are on your side morale, leadership, technology, firepower and experience. Will be interesting to see what happens when you advance and whether the Austrians are able to take advantage of the frontage rules to deploy those extra men.

Well, the first battle I actually have numbers (plus all the other advantages) on my side - the result is as one-sided as you might expect. But we still enter the second Autumn of the war with their core strength intact.

Austria's two-to-one power lead means that they've already lost about the equivalent pwr of your entire army so far. If they couldn't win when they had a three-to-one advantage, I can't really see any way they can do it now.

That said, they'll be on the defensive from now on, meaning it's time to see how much of your gains to date have been due to advantages inherent to the defender.

I wonder what the socio-political atmosphere of Italy would be like in these circumstances. Your losses are horrendous by nineteenth century standards (and Austria's are pretty bad by 20th century standards, they've lost about the same in the past year as they did on average per year in WWI). However bad the war has been, Italy has convincingly made the case for being regarded as a Great Power in its own right. Unlike the historical risorgimento, your Italy has gone it alone and looks to be winning.

The first offensive battle (where I outnumber them 2-1) sees the loss ratio at about 2-1 in my favour (& that is with crossing the Isonzo), so I think I may have been a bit cautious at evading open combat.

I'd guess domestically broadly supportive, given the attitudes of the time. Mllan and Venice would be seen as 'Italian'. One problem after the Po was regained in 1866 was that many felt that was Italy unified. So support for further gains became an indicator of an individual's politics (unlike in the period 1815-66), with relatively limited sustained support for further wars. Here, I am using a regular army and it is clearly going well. Any defeats are easy to airbrush out of the record so the lack of dissent is probably fairly realistic.

But yes, after this, no discussion of the shape of Europe will take place without Italy being fully consulted. I may not have the largest army but I do have the best.

You need only few battles to destroy their NM.

aye getting them below 65 is key. So far all they are offering is reparations and I want territory. That will change pretty soon.

I think that your assessment of the situation is correct: you destroyed a third of their army and there is no way that they will be able to dislodge you from the defensive positions you are in. Besides your army is veteran compared with the rookies Austria is tossing you at the bucketload and your commanders are top of the notch ( especially good ol' G-man ) ... not mentioning the difference in NM, both in absolute numbers and in current evolution trend. You can easily win this war at this point just by sitting in where you are and wait for the Austrians to come at you a couple of times more ... So why not do it instead of risking a attack ?

I think that the answer is in what your objectives in the medium run are. Your losses are still high enough to take quite a time to recover and you already mentioned that you want to move against Egypt soon. I assume you still want to give a couple more of bites in the Ottomans as soon as it is possible, so other war slotted. This points for a closeup of this war as soon as possible... so IMHO you should prepare to march against Vienna ASAP.

Other thing to consider is how wrecked you want Austria to be after this war ... the exact same situation than you had regarding the first Ottoman war, where you wanted them to be strong enough to not cave against the Russians. In spite of a rebel infested Austria could give some interesting opportunities to a nº2 of the world Italy, do you really want them completely wrecked at this point ? ...

The debate on the desired state of Austria is interesting. Its clear that to gain all I want, will take at least one more war (unless I occupy Vienna for 5-6 years), so there is that. Equally I may not get as lucky with Prussia sitting it out in another round. But one key bit in PoN, is you need strong states elsewhere. Not just as a bulwark against other powers (Prussia and Russia in this case) but economically. You could say that PoN has a Keynesian view of post-war economic revival. Purely for the good of my economy, I don't want an utterly weakened Austria, I want them to buy lots of Italian goodies, and I want raw materials (coal in particular) from them. So its a nice dilemna.

Equally I can sort of run guns+Butter, but what I can't really manage is guns+butter+industrial expansion, and it will be my economy that powers me to victory (both due to the prestige gain but also as it will underpin my armed forces).

its a good problem and debate - and another way that PoN produces a challenge. Worth stating, I don't think, even if you started say with GB you can do a world conquest here, so you always have to deal with a multipolar world.

Won't moving out of your mountain killzones make you vulnerable to those two large Austrian armies? I know your armies are better - technology, leaders, experience, NM, the lot - but I see a 9,000 power stack and a 10,000 power stack. If you don't have the advantages of terrain and being on the defense, won't that be a bit much to tackle with your roughly 5,000 power armies?

Since the AI seems perfectly content to mirror the real-life Italian front in World War I with endless assaults on your well-entrenched positions, I would let them. Give them a turn or two to replenish and I'm sure they'll be back - the AI does not seem to have any other plans.

Ricardo Rolo makes good points about not wrecking the Austrians too much, which might be another reason to keep this war relatively low-key by simply sitting in your foxholes and letting the Austrians come at you, at their own pace. ;)

Works two ways, if I spent 3-4 years in the trenches slaughtering them, at some stage they will fall over big time. Their NM must be low, the dislocation of all those reserves must be causing dissent, so a long war leaves me a wasteland on my northern border. Oddly I have to beat the living daylights out of them, quickly, for their own good :cool:

I don't see what you gain from even a moderately competent Austria. Wreck 'em.
My, good sir, you are positively bellicose! I think a fatally weakened Austria in itself is not a problem for loki, but it could easily lead to an even stronger Russia and/or Prussia. Russia already is a competitor for the carcass of the Ottoman Empire, so there's no need for them to gorge themselves on the Austrian cadaver as well. Prussia... Well, I assume keeping Prussia from getting too big for its boots is always a good thing.

Last thing we'd want is a Prussia/Germany that decides to annex the Austrian Alps and then becomes an uncomfortable neighbor to La Bella Italia.

Of course, I don't actually play the game, so what do I know? But to me a weak, but not too weak, Austria is infinitely preferable to an overpowered Russia or Prussia as Italy's northeastern neighbor. :)
I respectfully disagree: the last thing Italy needs is an allied Prussia with a decently-strong Austria who is wounded but not fatally weakened. The Ottomans will be no future threat, but an Austria intent upon revanche very well could be. As the proverb says, "Do no man a small harm."

If Prussia and Russia divide the carcass, Italy will get a chunk and the remaining rump will help shield italy from Prussia. Italy will then likely be able to ally with one of the other two, or will - under loki's benign guidance - be able to stand up for herself.

There is in my opinion no polity in Europe more disposable than Austria, no nation whose disappearance would cause less concern.

Wreck 'em.

Austrian will indeed be revanchist, it will have a CB on me (for Lombardia) if I take my desired goals. That will require some care in future (remember that for both Ottoman wars I left Italy undefended) as they could pounce at any stage.

Russia is my friend, not Prussia - not by intent but that is how it has worked out diplomatically (I guess we share the same enemies and have no real points of contest between us). I'm not sure on Ausria. I clearly want the Adriatic provinces (Friule and Trieste at least, Split maybe) and that will mean another war. Austria and Prussia are close allies so I suspect in future would back each other. So is it better to have a weakened Austria, lagging in technology as a major partner, or see Prussia take more and add it to their existing, I guess, first rate army? Equally will the shock of war and defeat set off a move to an Austro-Hungarian empire?

A lot to work my way around. But first the grim business of ensuring I am in a position to create the sort of peace I would like.
 

loki100

Field Marshal
22 Badges
Jul 1, 2008
7.559
6
  • Rome Gold
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Rise of Prussia
July-September 1879, Italy advances

With the war still in the balance, I decide I need (a) a new medal (+2 NM, some officers) and some reserves. If I press into Austria I want to be able to secure my supply lines and I don’t really have enough first rate units to spare.



Both sides take a break in early July during which I pull most of the army off the Dolomites and back to Venezia. My goal is to press back into the Friuli



For the first time I meet a large Austrian army in the relative open. Well the result is pretty stunning



That is the first big battle where I was on the offensive (& crossing a river), so the loss ratio is 2-1 rather than the 3-1 I was gaining in the Dolomites. But the Austrian force is shattered. Unfortunately, any elation is short lived, first a large Austrian force overruns the Marines at Split


[1]

And disaster strikes in the Dolomites, my weakened lines break under the renewed Austrian offensive.



Well yes it is posted as a defeat, but I managed a 3-1 kill ratio and, fortunately the Austrians failed to follow up their advantage [2]. Did nothing for my peace of mind though.



A second battle in Udine secures the town and inflicts another beating on the Austrians.



Unfortunately this is not enough to save the man with the beard who is blamed for the loss of Split



Even as Europe stands in awe at the bloodshed in the Dolomites, Prussia carries on its mission to squabble with the entire globe.


(of more interest, Lombardia is also an Austrian objective, so they will have a regular CB on me – I may have to be more careful at stripping Italy of troops in the future).

By the start of October the war has entered a new phase. The Austrians not only abandoned their offensive in the Dolomites but allowed Italian units to seize Innsbruck. However, as the fresh reserves are integrated into the veteran formations, it becomes clear that the Austrians intend to contest any advance towards Wien.



To show how the provinces linked I’ve indicated which of my forces can support the others. So while the force in the Sud-Tirol may look isolated in fact it is well protected, equally if I push into Klagenfurt, where the Austrian army is, all my formations can support the attack. The army at Innsbruck is a little isolated but that is mountainous terrain.

[1] this led to a pingpong and I lost a lot of elements when retreating
[2 this happens sometimes in the AGE combat system. My last RoP AAR has a lot of instances were I was the loser but held the ground at the end – defend at all costs is the order that helps here (though that can also get you wiped out).