Manpower

[unmerged(7784)]

There are 2 main options when anyone plays Portugal.
1: Conquer Spain, colonise like crazy.
2: Colonise like crazy.

That's about it.

Choosing option 1 will give you plenty of manpower, by obvious means.
Option 2 will also give u plenty of manpower, just that it's more tricky. For example, you have to colonise South America quick, getting all the grain provs fast, and try your best to keep the natives intact so the cities will be bigger. Bigger grain baskets in South America = higher manpower.

Heck, why would you need a 100K army if you're not gonna conquer Spain?

 

[unmerged(25696)]

Option 2 will also give u plenty of manpower, just that it's more tricky. For example, you have to colonise South America quick, getting all the grain provs fast, and try your best to keep the natives intact so the cities will be bigger. Bigger grain baskets in South America = higher manpower.

You're confusing two things : manpower and support limit.

Grain will only improve your support limit, and Flammehav said she already knew how to raise it.

But manpower also determines the amount of troops you may recruit, or your 'recruitment reserve', to make a parallel with Vicky. If you have a low manpower, but suffer a disaster during the war, or if you simply need more troops quickly (and already emptied the mercenaries' pool), you'll have problems...

 

[unmerged(6147)]

That is similar to what I do. I like playing a few early years of Portugal between more challanging games. But, in the first war, I wouldn't take a single province from Castile. I would force vassalize them. In addition to the good advice on making war in 1419, once all of Castile's provinces are covered, I recommend provoking a revolt in Algarve. Algarve doesn't defect until the war is over, but it's better to try to provoke the revolt before you gain control of too many other Catholic provinces. Once you gain 100% victory over Castile, hold control for a long time to get lots of peace cash. Once peace is made, allow Algarve to defect. Wait for war exhaustion to abate. Break truce against Castile with troops in your vassals' territory.

In 1510 you want Andalusia.

Tom!

I don't get this. If all you want is Andalusia before 1510, why not take it in the first war (easy if one, as you say, have all their territory covered).

What is the purpose of all this scheming?

 

[unmerged(25696)]

Tom!

I don't get this. If all you want is Andalusia before 1510, why not take it in the first war (easy if one, as you say, have all their territory covered).

What is the purpose of all this scheming?

Getting the CoT and shipyard I suppose. A nice move, for anybody else than Portugal who already have a shipyard and a CoT in Tago. But for Portugal, it's not really useful IMO.

 

[unmerged(3931)]

I know how to raise the maintaines number, but now it's 1472 and my manpower is still only 8000, with 4000 a year.

Here is a FAQ on manpower: Manpower Maths Unplugged

Most important to note is that you can only get manpower from provinces on the same continent as your capital or provinces land connected to your capital (straights count as land connection). For provinces of different culture you get one less manpower than an enemy gets if they have a matching culture (used to be two less but is now changed in recent version). And you get one less manpower for provinces with nationalism revolt risk of 3% (first ten years of taking a non-pagan, non-core province).

But, even though your manpower is 4000 per year you can still build 12000 per year. Twelve thousand is the minimum for buildable troops per year. So, even at your low manpower, you can still build a decent army in only a few years. An army of 100K can be had in about 8 years. But supporting a 100K army is another matter; so it's nice to have some manpower support. And it's nice to get manpower so that you have a larger reserve rather than just 8K. But manpower isn't as important as money; income helps you support your troops too (support is inflation free when you're at zero in the treasury).

Option 2 will also give u plenty of manpower, just that it's more tricky. For example, you have to colonise South America quick, getting all the grain provs fast, and try your best to keep the natives intact so the cities will be bigger. Bigger grain baskets in South America = higher manpower.

Yes, that is confusing support limit with manpower. Playing as Portugal, you cannot get manpower from South America, because South America is a different continent than your capital and a land connection is impossible.

 

[unmerged(3931)]

Tom!

I don't get this. If all you want is Andalusia before 1510, why not take it in the first war (easy if one, as you say, have all their territory covered).

What is the purpose of all this scheming?

Well, I like to stay small at the beginning so I can keep tech costs and stability costs down. It doesn't matter much to take Andalusia early because I will control it almost all the time anyway (and get most of the associated income). I like to get the shipyard early around 1510, rather than wait for the shipyard in Tago. Besides it cannot hurt to have another shipyard.

I keep Castile in nearly constant war, just keep breaking truce. The peace money, loot, then eventually maps and colonies are my rewards. Where are you going to get lots of cash to colonize? I make lots of sub-city-sized colonies. Again I stay small for tech costs and stability costs.

 

[Flammehav]

??

I played a decade or so yesterday, and suddenly my max manpower had risen with 3000. Yearly had risen with a 1000. I havn't conquered any provinces, neither in Europe or anywhere else. Concription center is long out of my reach, becouse of technology, the only thing I've done in Europe is building a few legal councils. Otherwise I've putting down some TP and small colonies in South America and Africa,(no, I don't have a landborder to Africa), I got a CoT in South America and discovered the Incas and the Chimu and started trading in their CoT.
That about it. I can see that that would help my support limit, and it have, but I don't know why it would affect my manpower. Though it's very welcome.
None of my cities has gone over the 20 000 limit either.
Any suggestion? I've read the Manpower FAQ of Peter Ebbesen, but I couldn't find the answer there.

 

[unmerged(29041)]

Yes, It is confusing.

Your provinces in your continent or with land connection to your capital give you manpower modified by culture and nationalism. That added province manpower is then modified by your DP sliders giving you your total manpower. Then it is doubled. That number is now your manpower pool (on the top bar). Your manpower pool or total recruiting per year, is divided by 12. That is what you can recruit every first of the month. But if it is lower than 1000, you will still be able to recruit 1000 a month (minimum of 12k/year for everybody).

Manpower only refers to the speed at wich you can grow your army (discounting mercenaries). The size of your army is only limited by the amount of money you have and make. It is tied to your size.

The support limit only gives you the maximum size of an army that can be maintained at a reduced prize. It is tied to your economy.

The AI cheats on support limit, but does not cheat on manpower.

 

[unmerged(29041)]

The factors that increase manpower are:
-increased population
-random events
-reduction of nationalism
-DP sliders, moving towards Land and Quantity
-change of culture (state or province)
-Conscription centers

 

[unmerged(25696)]

I played a decade or so yesterday, and suddenly my max manpower had risen with 3000. Yearly had risen with a 1000. I havn't conquered any provinces, neither in Europe or anywhere else. Concription center is long out of my reach, becouse of technology, the only thing I've done in Europe is building a few legal councils. Otherwise I've putting down some TP and small colonies in South America and Africa,(no, I don't have a landborder to Africa), I got a CoT in South America and discovered the Incas and the Chimu and started trading in their CoT.
That about it. I can see that that would help my support limit, and it have, but I don't know why it would affect my manpower. Though it's very welcome.
None of my cities has gone over the 20 000 limit either.
Any suggestion? I've read the Manpower FAQ of Peter Ebbesen, but I couldn't find the answer there.

You probably just finished colonizing the Azores, which are in ... Europe (game-wise at least).

Tough it seems to be a lot for just that small colonial city.

 

[unmerged(3931)]

Azores helps but not that much. There must have been a random event like "new land claimed", or "Containments Established" (sp?). You can search the history portion of the save game if you're curious. Or it might be you changed the DP sliders this past decade?

Oddly, The Canary Islands are also part of Europe for manpower and movement time (not slow African movement speeds). But The Canary Islands are not part of Europe when figuring European waters for transport ships being able to do battle.

 

[unmerged(6147)]

I think it is "cantonments".

BTW, thanks for your answer to the POR-CAS riddle. So you say that you are almost constantly at war with them for the first 80-90 years of the game. What happens with war exhaustion when you are covering their provinces but there are no battles because they have no army (that is at least what I suppose is the case)? Does it not rise as long as you do not control any of their provinces? Does it not rise even if you control one of their provinces?

BTW, why DOWING and breaking truce? Why not never go to peace in the first war and thus never needing to pay stab for the trucebreaking DOW? Perhaps because you want to make another war and need WE to get down to 0?

Many questions but reading about how you play this game is always exciting and something one can learn a lot from

 

[unmerged(6147)]

Where are you going to get lots of cash to colonize? I make lots of sub-city-sized colonies. Again I stay small for tech costs and stability costs.

Interesting. You mean you should not expand them to become cities.

But then, when you have reached say 8-10 colonies, you will find it hard to establish a new onel. Perplexing! Do you stop colonising in the 1460s or so? Are you perhaps using an old version of the game where the number of present colonies based penalty on the succes chance for creating a new colony does not exist?

 

[unmerged(29041)]

What happens with war exhaustion when you are covering their provinces but there are no battles because they have no army (that is at least what I suppose is the case)? Does it not rise as long as you do not control any of their provinces? Does it not rise even if you control one of their provinces?

BTW, why DOWING and breaking truce? Why not never go to peace in the first war and thus never needing to pay stab for the trucebreaking DOW? Perhaps because you want to make another war and need WE to get down to 0?

I am not going to answer for ws2_32, but when you are small, culturally and religiously homogeneous, stability is the least of your problems. War exhaustion will take a long time to bite. Your first problems with war exhaustion will probably come from Castile provinces, specially Andalusia and Murcia that are muslim, but the AI suffers less from WE. I would say you can probably get 10 years before WE becomes a problem. Then you accept peace for a lot of money. You want perhaps a year or 1.5 to recover from WE, but you don't want Castile to build up too much or get unexpected allies, so ASAP you break the truce, since stability is recovered probably in a year or two. As long as you don't take provinces, the system pushes you up while keeps Castile down. Once you have milked the cow to your taste, you dress on your toreador custom and go for the kill.

 

[unmerged(6147)]

I would say you can probably get 10 years before WE becomes a problem.

What is the defintion of "problem"? When rebs start appearing I believe you have a problem, at least if attrition doesn't kill them. And they might pop up rather early, much earlier than with 10% WE.

But the solution might be that his WE does not rise to 10%. I don't know if it rises when you control an enemy province but have no armies present within their territory, or perhaps even when you have, perhaps you need to battle for WE to rise.

 

[unmerged(29041)]

No, WE is a global modifier of the province specific revolt risk. WE has a counter that counts the time at war (since last peace), plus bonus and penalties coming from DP sliders, troop recruitment, emptying the manpower pool and war taxes. The first year of war is exempt of WE. The control of the province by enemy troops and its looting does not affect WE.

Definition of a problem is a personal matter. To me a rebel problem is when you have trouble to put down rebellions. Depending on the size of your army, that could be the first rebellion or the fifth. I start to get nervous when rebellions pop faster than I can put them down.

 

[unmerged(3931)]

But then, when you have rea7ched say 8-10 colonies, you will find it hard to establish a new onel. Perplexing! Do you stop colonising in the 1460s or so?

Once I get trade 4 and infra 3 or so I will likely expand to cities. I haven't counted; I get much more like 15 colonies before I have real difficulties colonizing. But I'm the monkey on Castile's back; remember? Castile will establish new colonies; and I take the new sub-city colonies in peace. I also build trade posts.

About your first question: Fodoron hit that one on the head. One more thing about WE is that WE goes up as you build troops. You get +1% WE (until you reach maximum) for each year's worth of buildable manpower that is reported in your tooltip. That may different from what you can actually build since the minimum buildable troops are actually 12K per year. After the first war you will have higher WE than later wars because of the need to build troops to beat Castile the first go 'round. Once they've been smashed, it's a lot easier to beat up on them again so long as you don't wait for the truce to expire.

Oh, and reasons for making peace are:

1) Reduce WE as discussed.

2) Get the peace cash. There is an eventual limit to what Castile/Spain will put in her treasury. Once the limit on peace cash is reached (like 750d?) there is little point in dragging the war out further. And if you need the money before that so that colonists will not be wasted without incurring inflation or a loan needs to be repaid then you might take the cash earlier.

3) Stop a colony from reaching city status. Even though you control a province, the AI is now able to continue colonizing. This isn't really a big deal since Castile has the same culture and religion and since BB points are really not much concern so long as Algarve has defected.

4) Update your maps. You may notice little settlers leaving Madrid and going off to provinces that you have not discovered. You had better make peace so that you can storm the capital again.

BB points are of little concern because for the first war it's 4BB points and with the defection of Algarve it's 1BB per war after that. And a war lasts like 10 to 12 years. With a small peace time, it could be 13 years between wars. Your BB points wear off much faster than that. There's nobody else to war with really. When you want to war with Aragon just insult them to get them to dishonor your alliance sometime after the first war. They will most likely ally with Castile at some point. Eventually you want to stomp on Aragon because the whole thing becomes Spain anyway.

Stability is of little concern because you can quickly recover stability with your monarch's abilities alone. If you let Algarve defect, you are a two province country with some sub-city colonies. It's only 4d/stability for a sub-city colony and 2d/stability for trade posts.

Oh, and ToT is of little concern because I basically don't let Spain keep armies and navies.

 

[unmerged(6147)]

No, WE is a global modifier of the province specific revolt risk. WE has a counter that counts the time at war (since last peace), plus bonus and penalties coming from DP sliders, troop recruitment, emptying the manpower pool and war taxes. The first year of war is exempt of WE. The control of the province by enemy troops and its looting does not affect WE.

Well, the counter do not rise if you do nothing in the war and your opponent neither. That's a change Johan implemented some time ago. And that's why I asked about controlling provinces. But now you claim the control of provinces and looting does not affect WE. This means that ws2_32:s WE will not rise once he has stopped battling the Spanish and thus he will not reach a high WE although he does not go to peace until after 10-12 years, according to what he said. And that would be the solution to the high WE problem I was concerned about.

 

[maekh]

would be interesting to see a list of cultures and their total manpower in 1419

 

[unmerged(29041)]

Well, the counter do not rise if you do nothing in the war and your opponent neither. That's a change Johan implemented some time ago. And that's why I asked about controlling provinces. But now you claim the control of provinces and looting does not affect WE. This means that ws2_32:s WE will not rise once he has stopped battling the Spanish and thus he will not reach a high WE although he does not go to peace until after 10-12 years, according to what he said. And that would be the solution to the high WE problem I was concerned about.

I am sure WE increases when keeping control of enemy provinces.

I can only guess what Johan changes mean. It is possible that the decission about if it is an active war or not, sets the WE clock ticking (from minus 1 year). The easiest way of implementing this would be to watch if warscore stops being zero. Once the war is recognized as an active war I really, really, doubt that the WE clock will stop clicking (pause or go down) until peace is reached. There is nothing you can do to slow down the WE clock (besides right DP positions), but you can speed it up by having the wrong DP positions, recruiting troops, and rising war taxes. Controlling or looting enemy provinces should not speed up the WE clock, but it would definitely keep ticking.