Manpower issue - game is not playable

[unmerged(160040)]

So I have started a few games as a minor now and expected the big picture to be somewhat realistic. Which up until around Barbarossa it seems to be.

Then the following happens: Germany rolls into Russia about 5-6 provinces deep - and stop. Out of manpower. The Russians doesnt counterattack, the lines stay frozen. I load as Russia: they are out of manpower.

A couple of months later, the US makes a landing at Brest. They start to move inland a reasonable speed, then stops. I load as USA, and (wait for it) they are out of manpower.

This major flaw in the programming can hardly be classified as a bug. Its a feature, unintended but never the less, that completely breaks the entire game from 1940 forward regardless of which nation you choose.

Its been 4 months since release now. I am a patient man but if I truly wanted to get screwed this bad (which I dont) I would probably frequent a gay bar or something.

Paradox, you need to fix this and a dozen other things. I am tempted to write a formal complaint to the EU Customers Complaints Bureau since these issues with your product is actually starting to look like willful fraud.

Several months has now passed and your product is still not even near the state you claim it is when selling it to us.

That being said, HOI3 and a lot of your other games has a lot of potential. So please fix it before you ruin your brand name. Because what you are doing now is just really bad for business, pure and simple.

 

[AlanC9]

In what sense does it completely break the game? Being out of manpower doesn't stop a nation from attacking with the troops it has.

If Germany and Russia both had more manpower, wouldn't they still be stalemated, just with more troops?

Or are you saying that the AI will refuse to attack when MP is low? I haven't tested this, but it's conceivable. Note that the USA is probably out of supplies, not manpower -- they were probably out of manpower long before landing at Brest.

 

[unmerged(160040)]

Or are you saying that the AI will refuse to attack when MP is low?

It seems that way, yes. I think its related to the overall (perhaps Theatre?) Strength level in some way. Once I let the game run for a full year after the usual stalemate began and neither the German nor Russian lines moved a single province. This would then be explained by being constant under-strength due to the AI funneling all fresh Manpower into creating new units instead of reinforcing existing ones.

As for the US, its definately MP shortage as well as one of the plentiful Supply issues at work. The Germans doesnt attack them either, so all that there is in late spring 1942 is two stalemated lines in Europe, one in west Russia, one in France. And by stalemated I mean completely frozen in place for months.

*EDIT* I actually think I might have found it. Loading up with Germany, the US and Russia, I have found all the HQs on all fronts in Defensive stance. In other words, they are not attacking at all regardless of Unit strength/Org - they just dig in. If I would hazard a guess, the constant lack of Manpower in some way triggers the Theatre HQs Defensive stance.

 

[TheDarkside]

As for the US, its definately MP shortage as well as one of the plentiful Supply issues at work. The Germans doesnt attack them either, so all that there is in late spring 1942 is two stalemated lines in Europe, one in west Russia, one in France. And by stalemated I mean completely frozen in place for months.

Would be great for a WW1 simulator.

 

[Gladiator]

I noticed such stalemates in my Italian campaigns too, but I cannot understand why. Maybe, MP was the answer, maybe not. AI started "sleeping" on 1941. On both German-Soviet front and Italy-UK front in Africa. That happened with 1.3 patch. I'm testing AIIP (snapshot 314) now. Since I read about a MP improvement related to country IC, I hope AI will do something better now. AI should avoid building further units when MP reaches half-IC value, with that patch. Let us see....

BTW, Paradox team doesn't deserve such negative criticism. When someone works hardly, he's worth of respect. They improved this (complicated) game a lot, so I thank them because game is far better and more playable now, even if it's still bugged. I believe they'll fix them as soon as possible.

And there's AIIP team. They're doing great with their mod... Thanks very much!!!

 

[bluepoo]

maybe you need to invest in some agri techs? shouldnt that bump up the mp? if the ai doesnt do it, thats something else. but if you dont do it then, well, theres no excuse.

 

[unmerged(179641)]

I used to notice the same issues, then lowered the base stacking penalty from .05 to .01 and removed the channel island land link as described in this thread - http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=443504

And never again have I seen stalled armies regardless of manpower or stacks

Every front just flows, because armies will not stall due to the -100% attacking penalty from stacking

In fact the only remaining issue is the US and it's seeming inability to transport large numbers of troops consistently over the ocean to Europe and Asia, but that is a deeper and harder to fix problem, and I have seen even them make a few large scale attacks with these 2 small fixes

 

[AlanC9]

It seems that way, yes. I think its related to the overall (perhaps Theatre?) Strength level in some way. Once I let the game run for a full year after the usual stalemate began and neither the German nor Russian lines moved a single province. This would then be explained by being constant under-strength due to the AI funneling all fresh Manpower into creating new units instead of reinforcing existing ones.

As for the US, its definately MP shortage as well as one of the plentiful Supply issues at work. The Germans doesnt attack them either, so all that there is in late spring 1942 is two stalemated lines in Europe, one in west Russia, one in France. And by stalemated I mean completely frozen in place for months.

I think both of these might be just related to theater requirements. AI's won't advance if the requirements aren't met. More MP for both sides wouldn't help this, because if the other side has more MP the theater requirements would just keep going up as it builds more units. Since you've got a save, what are the theaters reporting?

Note that German MP is probably draining anyway. I've seen this stalemate suddenly break in 1943 as Soviets outreinforce the Germans, who take more losses from attrition.

Edit: I agree with carnagel's stacking penalty change, but that shouldn't have much effect on the Soviet front, since the front's long enough that you don't see super stacks in the first place.

 

[TheDarkside]

BTW, Paradox team doesn't deserve such negative criticism. When someone works hardly, he's worth of respect. They improved this (complicated) game a lot, so I thank them because game is far better and more playable now, even if it's still bugged. I believe they'll fix them as soon as possible.

Yeah I believe this should be underscored. Paradox has a great history of listening to their community and responding to their concerns. Unlike most games out there Paradox games are incredibly in-depth and complicated. Obviously if they were greedy or didn't care they would not take such a risky workload unless they really wanted to please the community who's been begging for these advanced features in their game. They could easily just ignore these grand visions and just release HoI:Light which is totally dumbed down. It would be so simplified that it would come out polished and problem free the day it was released. But it would play like Minesweeper. So my biggest fear when reading the more harsh negative criticism is that Paradox are going to be forced to shy away from making anything ambitious and start dumbing games down. That would make me very sad

 

[AlanC9]

I think there might be a completely separate AI attack issue. I've seen odd situations where the AI has total superiority in an area but won't advance. For instance, 20 Australian divisions surrounding two Japanese divisions in Darwin, and yet refusing to attack for two years.

 

[unmerged(179641)]

I think both of these might be just related to theater requirements. AI's won't advance if the requirements aren't met. More MP for both sides wouldn't help this, because if the other side has more MP the theater requirements would just keep going up as it builds more units. Since you've got a save, what are the theaters reporting?

Note that German MP is probably draining anyway. I've seen this stalemate suddenly break in 1943 as Soviets outreinforce the Germans, who take more losses from attrition.

Edit: I agree with carnagel's stacking penalty change, but that shouldn't have much effect on the Soviet front, since the front's long enough that you don't see super stacks in the first place.

The theater requirements directly equate to the attacking AI needing an 'overwhelming majority' before they commence the attack, which is a direct result of the stacking penalty. I loaded up two different campaigns playing as a small unrelated nation where the Germans and Russkies were stalled for 18 months, and after applying the base stacking changes both times the fighting commenced immediately and didn't stop until a victory was achieved

And Japan was stalled in the east for over 2 years, they immediately commenced attacking and rolled over China with the changes

It doesn't take super stacks to stop them attacking, even a 5 v 5 stack is enough with the .05 base stacking penalty to stall the AI, when combined with other penalties such as rivers, forests, mountains, land fortifications etc etc

 

[quetzilla]

This is a new bug, going on about how its been 4 months since release is just hyperbole. That said, you can continue to whine about it, or just go download the latest AI Improvement pack (snapshot r314) and play the game.

 

[unmerged(160040)]

I have tried some things now, loading up the nations involved. Indeed it seems like the Theater AIs are the problem: they all have the "lack of Troops" warning and I think its safe to say that thats whats triggering the Defensive stance and thus the bogging down is more complex then just a single problem, i.e the MP issue.

Theoretically it could look like this (and does atm): Germany starts Barbarossa. After advancing a few provinces, they get one of the frequent allied ( I think I have seen 5-10 attempts in this game alone so far) amphibious landing in their back. The AI then diverts troops from the East front to the landing site.

This puts the entire Eastern front Theatre HQ at Defensive stance, since it is now in "Lack of Troops" mode. At the same time, the US advance inland but runs out of Supply so they grind into a halt. The US forces are now in "Lack of troops" mode, so they too go into Defensive stance.

The Germans units will not attack and drive them into the ocean since they are still attatched to the East front HQ....which is in Defensive mode, brought on by the very same troops leaving the Eastern front.

At the same time, the Russians reinforce their front lines with the meagre amount of Manpower they have available. Its enough to keep the Germans in indefinite Defensive stance but at the same time not nearly enough for the Russians to actually switch to Attack stance and attack Germany.

So the game goes into a dead end. Mind you, I havent waited 6-8 hours more to see if something actually happens in 1946 or so.

 

[unmerged(160040)]

This is a new bug, going on about how its been 4 months since release is just hyperbole. That said, you can continue to whine about it, or just go download the latest AI Improvement pack (snapshot r314) and play the game.

I have, and although its a very nice mod it doesnt seem to help with this latest screwup. There are way too many game-breaking issues currently in the game to consider it even close to a finished product, with or without user developed mods.

 

[snoopy1710]

...
When someone works hardly, he's worth of respect.
...

Quite so, quite so.



Sorry, couldn't resist.

Snoopy

 

[AlanC9]

I loaded up two different campaigns playing as a small unrelated nation where the Germans and Russkies were stalled for 18 months, and after applying the base stacking changes both times the fighting commenced immediately and didn't stop until a victory was achieved

Well, I certainly won't oppose experimental data. Truth is, I've been playing with stacking penalties off for a long time myself.

With the last AIIP, Germany started to collapse sometime in mid-1943, not 1946. UK AI would have overrun Germany except for the required troops issue; there were actually no troops at all between the UK front lines in France and Berlin itself. I think it's because the UK troops got close enough to the Eastern theater that they started to see the troops facing the Russians as their opponents, and obviously the UK didn't have enough troops to beat that many Germans.

 

[unmerged(155897)]

It is unfourtunatly a bit of a game breaker, I think I will have to install that AI improvement pack. In one of my current games as Japan I loaded up as Germany in late 1937 and they have almost 400 brigades and they are all reserves and only have 380 manpower. That only means one thing for them trouble. I have seen the same thing with the Russians and the result was their complete collasp after about three months of Barbarossa. Should Paradox take some stick for this? Well maybe a little but be grateful that there are enough clever people who like the game enough to fix its problems for free.

 

[quetzilla]

I have, and although its a very nice mod it doesnt seem to help with this latest screwup. There are way too many game-breaking issues currently in the game to consider it even close to a finished product, with or without user developed mods.

Are you sure you're using r314? There is a specific fix in 314 for the reserve/manpower issue. We're still testing the fix, so if it's *not* working for you then that is important information for us and we can try to adjust it to fix it further. There are many factors involved and it's not terribly easy to fix so that all nations make proper choices.

That said, I get really tired of people complaining about 'unfinished product' and so on. This games is incredibly ambitious in the scope of what it is trying to simulate. I mean, 14000 provinces? Never been done before (to my knowledge). Now, you might say that you would have preferred that it was less ambitious as long as it worked right. And that's an okay opinion to have, but it's an opinion of personal preference rather than a valid expectation that Paradox is failing to meet. I personally prefer that it IS as ambitious as it is, even if it doesn't work 100% right out of the box.

So in sum, if you don't like the situation I don't hold that against you, but please stop making it out as if Paradox has been ripping you off for selling you an unfinished product (this is to everyone who does this, not necessarily you specifically).

 

[unmerged(107865)]

Set reinforcements to 0 for a month and you should gain in manpower. That worked for me.

 

[Thunda]

Problem is, tincup, the AI won't do that (ok, could maybe force it in the AIIP, but then front lines will eventually just melt away) - and its the AI where the major problems lie.

I'm playing a 314 US game with the AIIP and the manpower issue has now just crippled the world in 1941. Germany and France are just sitting looking at each other just outside Paris .. Japan doing nothing .. even the USSR, not at war yet, are out of Manpower.

It all comes down to 2 things ..

Day 1 of release - I put a thread on the forums of how "easy" everything seemed - as Germany I could just produce oodles and oodles of Reserve divisions and not really take a hit - although, I was aware of the future manpower cost when they mobilised - however, the AI wasn't aware of costs and it could do the same.

Sadly, tho, another observation was noticed by myself in future games - there was manpower bug which meant you never paid the full manpower cost when you mobilised your armies (you only paid something like 10% of the true cost) BUT .. if you then demobilised later (or the AI did) - you would be reimbursed the full amount of manpower that you should have originally spent (when in fact you only "paid" 10% of the true cost).

These 2 things combined cause the current problems with Manpower as PI fixed the bug of the reserve mobilisation manpower .. but, all their testing on reserves and mobilisation (and therefore manpower requirements throughout the game) would have been based with this bug in existence.

So today, we still have a situation where the AI or the player can still produce masses of reserve divisions - and now with resere manpower bug fixed - no way they can bring them fully up to strength (and maintain them) as the nations manpower becomes a big fat zero quickly.

And truthfully, its not easily fixed IMHO .. just blindly giving nations XXXX more manpower will just result in the same problems - but with masses more reserve divisions produced than what currently are. The only solution would be to have a 2nd (hidden) Manpower total for the AI which shows how much manpower they would have when fully mobilised and base any further production on this number and not on the current "what you can see" manpower total. But, that raises the question, could that be exploitable by a savvy player? Possibly ..