Manpower in 1.5

[Sherhi]

Try doing an Austria-Hungaria run now ._.
"Planning ahead" there is imposssible. you have 0 manpower and you have to go to war before you can raise your manpower. but in the meantime you're fighting (read, defending) with 0 reserves, and the fighting drains more then the daily trickle supplies.
How am i to survive the second world war when i cant even reinforce troops? Getting shelled by CAS isn't helping either. I have to relly on myallies to defend my airspace, something they don't reliably do

Sounds okay to me. Sucks for gameplay purposes but your enemies face the same problem. Basically now you will sometimes be forced to think about switching to higher recruitment instead of "oh boy 0 manpower, lets scrape the barrel for millions of reserves instantly". You will also have to pay attention to war support since that increases mobilization speed.

Its another layer of gameplay, if you play a country with lower base manpower you can either join "the good guys", take advantage of defensive war and get manpower more quickly, or think before you mass click on recruitment button and start training 50 divisions like you used to do before WtT. It will be interesting to see how people use strategies based on this in MP, do you use all of your manpower on 50 divisions to overcome the enemy or do you save it for prolongued fighting? System is not fully explored yet.

 

[krios41]

Sounds okay to me. Sucks for gameplay purposes but your enemies face the same problem. Basically now you will sometimes be forced to think about switching to higher recruitment instead of "oh boy 0 manpower, lets scrape the barrel for millions of reserves instantly". You will also have to pay attention to war support since that increases mobilization speed.

The other countryes do not have the smae problem, other countries start with a reserve (and in amny cases, a very small one)
But going as Hungaria you start with nothing, zilch, nyet, nada. Going scraping the barrel as soon as you can seems almost mandatory if you want to have some reserves build up. I agree one shouldn't get millions of people instantly, but how it is now it's not good for minor countries, they gain too litle, too slow.

Minors should have some more manpower options available to be frank. Even a Prince of terror would help a lot, but gues wh gets them? the major countries who need them the least :I

 

[Karaya 1]

Honestly I feel like the change to the speed of your mobilization with war Support is rather tiny. I mean i get it and all and i REALLY like the new MP system, but if it takes 4 years to change to the highest laws they become moot by design. That cant be WAD.

 

[Sir Garnet]

So it can take years to fill out a manpower call. Do the penalties phase in proportionally or cut in right away?

The execution of the idea sounds very bureaucratic and gamey.

Actual countries with reserve training can call up men pretty fast. Even those with no more than a training cadre (like the US) were able to turn out a trained army within a year.
Other countries could use more aggressive methods to grab manpower and put it in uniform.

The equipment constraint on combat service is already explicitly part of the game production mechanics.

 

[Quantum_AI]

"oh boy 0 manpower, lets scrape the barrel for millions of reserves instantly". Y

Hyperbole?

Most of us like the fact that manpower trickles slowly now. The point is that it should NOT take 4-5 years for that to happen. There is a lot of middle ground between "instantly" and 4-5 years which some people have experienced. Do you not get that?

It should maybe take a few months to a year max depending on war support. Because if it is to take 4-5 years, you might as well remove the option to choose mobilization laws and do that trickle automatically. France, UK, Germany, US managed to draft 3-5 million in the first year itself.

 

[Karaya 1]

They apply immediately.

 

[SeekTruthFromFx]

So that´s the problem! Thanks, really didn´t see it and now i´m feeling stupid lol

I also got caught out by exactly this combination of laws the first time that I played China. I think it's because normally when you play a major, you're equally or more focused on manpower problems than production. But as China, you don't expect manpower to be a problem.

Yeah, but I still see that as not working in line with how the changes are intended. My manpower pool jumped by over 17 million in a day when it should have just adjusted the amount I get trickling in.

Perhaps the underlying issue here is that the mobilization change (which I like) has covertly changed what manpower represents. It used to represent the country's pool of men of fighting age, presently unemployed or working in non-essential occupations (Belgian chocolatiers, Chinese silk farmers, Danish bakers, English butlers, Swiss cuckoo-clock makers, French generals.... ). It now represents men who have got their conscription papers & dog tags and are waiting for the telegram telling them to which depot/stone frigate/airfield they should report for basic training. The Roman Empire jump made sense with the old model, but it doesn't with the new one.

 

[lemonsquid]

playing austria-hungary is really difficult now even with a full sized empire before the official war starts

 

[Sherhi]

Hyperbole?

Most of us like the fact that manpower trickles slowly now. The point is that it should NOT take 4-5 years for that to happen. There is a lot of middle ground between "instantly" and 4-5 years which some people have experienced. Do you not get that?

It should maybe take a few months to a year max depending on war support. Because if it is to take 4-5 years, you might as well remove the option to choose mobilization laws and do that trickle automatically. France, UK, Germany, US managed to draft 3-5 million in the first year itself.

Im sorry, so you crying that quadrupling your manpower takes few years is not hyperbole but my example, that was actual reality (it did happen like that and many people used it exactly like I described, also leading to exploitation of bugs related to that previous system) is hyperbole?

Note: me using a word "quadrupling" is not hyperbole either, its a real fact, based on numbers + skipping of one conscription law but whatever

If you go from one conscription law to a next one, gradually, you wont have any problems, you get some 3%+ per year with average war support

 

[krios41]

Im sorry, so you crying that quadrupling your manpower takes few years is not hyperbole but my example, that was actual reality (it did happen like that and many people used it exactly like I described, also leading to exploitation of bugs related to that previous system) is hyperbole?

Note: me using a word "quadrupling" is not hyperbole either, its a real fact, based on numbers + skipping of one conscription law but whatever

If you go from one conscription law to a next one, gradually, you wont have any problems, you get some 3%+ per year with average war support

Whatever happend in reality < Gameplay

My problems right now are:

1. When you're at 0 manpower you basicly stay there. The per day income is insufficient, even at 100% war suport (does stability also have an effect? i can't find if it does)
2. It is unclear how many people i'm stil getting (if at all)
3. Casualties should be stated in the manpower overvieuw so i can have a better overvieuw

And the following is a personal pet peeve, but i do not necisarily deem it big problem.

1. Nations with low core population have no way of getting a decent military.
   1. Not much of a problem when those countries are in the Hands of an AI
   2. More of a problem when in the hands of a player
      1. Example: south africa, there is no point in playing as SA besides the achievements you can get with it. It never can build up military that is in any way meaningfull.
      2. example: Astria-Hungaria, it's meant to be able to get it's core states, that means you'l have to go to war with the allies/axis/commitern and at least with one aditional faction. Good luck doing that with your abyssmal manpower

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I think its okay, previously it didnt make sense to purposely wait for 0 manpower only to then press magical button giving you millions of manpower so that you can avoid penalties from higher conscription laws...now you have to plan ahead, if you go full barbarossa with 1 mil manpower in reserves you might as well increase your conscription right away because its most likely not going to be enough. And you should take additional penalties if you are planning on draining your population for full out war. Consription laws are also tied to war support so you should include conscription into your planning otherwise it may screw you over in the long run.

Honestly, I dont see a problem. If you plan for it yes you take penalties, if your opponent doesnt he doesnt have those penalties but wont have enough manpower to defend if you invade him prepared.

4.5 years for conscription law to take full effect (with over a year until paying the extra 150 early for a direct switch matters in the slightest) has no credible historical basis and more importantly results in degenerate gameplay. Low manpower nations will just always switch and stay, hoping to be able to play a few years later.

Im sorry, so you crying that quadrupling your manpower takes few years is not hyperbole but my example, that was actual reality (it did happen like that and many people used it exactly like I described, also leading to exploitation of bugs related to that previous system) is hyperbole?

Nobody is "crying" about anything. That's weak disrespect and a plausible argument works without that sort of language.

Going from one soldier to four soldiers quadruples your army. Still want to make a case that should take 4 years?

Maybe mobilization should take something closer to historical timeframes and not half the relevant timeline, especially given you're hard-blocked from even having the option to take higher conscription laws early now.

 

[Quantum_AI]

so you crying that

Hey, no need to get salty. We are just discussing game mechanics here. Chill.

 

[Zwirbaum]

IMO - I would give option to enact extensive conscription to non-aligned as long as they have enough war support. Also at higher than extensive conscription recruitment laws, I would add +mobilization speed, so it will trickle faster. I'll probably include it sooner or later as idea for CRT.

There is also the case, where at 0% War Support there is -50% Mobilization Speed, while at 100% War Support there is +3% Mobilization Speed, which doesn't seem to right. In general I've seen quite a lot of wonkyness with the trickle speed and the 'modifiers'.

Also fun fact - if you'll 'demobilize' manpower will trickle down faster with high war support, while with low war support it will trickle down much slower - because logic?

 

[Stolen Rutters]

I like the manpower change.

Trying out the new beta, I am running a light, fun “expand only through the focuses game before Germany kicks off the big one” as Italy, I ran into low manpower fighting through Romania (who defends Greece), it forced me to either pause and replenish my manpower, or push for that defensible spot and hold. A real hard choice.

4.5 years might not be balanced. After all this, reading through the thread, I can’t tell what would happen if you push the law up for 150 then push it up again 150 days ish later. Is there a catch-up period or does it restart growth from second starting spot? Would it be better to just wait for the 300PP to make two jumps at once?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

4.5 years might not be balanced. After all this, reading through the thread, I can’t tell what would happen if you push the law up for 150 then push it up again 150 days ish later. Is there a catch-up period or does it restart growth from second starting spot? Would it be better to just wait for the 300PP to make two jumps at once?

Storing 300 and jumping to all adults serve will not get you the manpower any faster than jumping in increments, which does refute that "plan ahead" argument to a small degree. You still trickle up at .009% per day, and until you get to 10% "all adults serve" does nothing but penalize you.

Italy, I ran into low manpower fighting through Romania (who defends Greece), it forced me to either pause and replenish my manpower, or push for that defensible spot and hold. A real hard choice.

Italy has a lot of manpower though, relatively speaking. As someone like Paraguay it is now completely impossible to recruit much more than ~100 width worth of stuff total before war...then in war you can finally switch conscription law, only to wait > 4 years to use the manpower from it. Other low manpower nations struggle similarly. Minors are weak and should be weak...but they should be weak for the proper reasons.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Storing 300 and jumping to all adults serve will not get you the manpower any faster than jumping in increments, which does refute that "plan ahead" argument to a small degree. You still trickle up at .009% per day, and until you get to 10% "all adults serve" does nothing but penalize you.

Thanks, I am reading but getting conflicting vibes from some posts. I think it’s people talking about other stuff and me not being able to keep up. Your post makes sense.

Edit, I still like the idea in general, the length of time it takes to fully implement the new recruitment law might be shortened to at most 3 years, otherwise it doesn’t sound so realistic, especially seeing how fast the US ramped up from Dec 1941 to May 1945...

Though Italy might need a 4.5 year time frame considering how many issues they had mobilizing under Mussolini’s rule... That could be covered under the war support fraction, maybe.

 

[Less2]

Seems odd that they made the manpower gain rate linear. It should be something like 0.009% per day OR 20% of the remaining manpower left to raise per month, whichever is higher. This way Service by Requirement would give you 2% your first month (assuming you could somehow start from 0%) while All Adults Serve would give 4%.

 

[_szabadi_]

Someting very odd with my Manpower numbers.

Playing as Japan, I'm jumping from 0 to 1.9M down to 0, then back up again several times per year.
I have altered the conscription level once in the game, and same with mobilization.

Imo this is simply a bug.

 

[Secret Master]

There is a lot of middle ground between "instantly" and 4-5 years which some people have experienced. Do you not get that?

And there is a lot of middle ground in the game between mobilizing with low war support and mobilizing with high war support. 4-5 years is only applying to countries with low war support.

 

[Th3master]

You can always change it in the defines

BASE_MOBILIZATION_SPEED = 0.01, -- Base speed of manpower mobilization #in 1/1000 of 1 %

I'm not sure if this is by day (I'm guessing it is) or by hour.

If it means that each day you are only mobilizing 1/100000 (1/1000 of 1%) of of your total population its gonna take a while.

It seems like overkill to me.