Manpower and manpower modifiers

[Suzineko]

I am playing with how manpower and manpower modifiers work and would like to know what has the most effect on the manpower recovery. National manpower modifier, manpower recovery speed or additional mil development.

In may calculation based on WIKI formula, it seems the both national manpower modifier and manpower recovery speed have same effect. In other words, 50% of one of these modifiers will increase the recovery same way, but the national manpower modifier also increases the total value of manpower.

Thanks

 

[yyrkroon]

I can never get my numbers to completely match the wiki formula, but in general, yes max manpower is better than recovery.

For example, here is the delta between calculated and observed, using the wiki formula.

Good discussion here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/236850/discussions/0/1621726179585102257/

 

[Jarvin]

tl;dr: what you see as "From Provinces" in manpower tooltip is not an actual sum of manpower values from each province.

The formula from wiki is fully correct, but it's nearly impossible to calculate manpower recovery manually(ie. thru some spreadsheet).

As far as the difference between national manpower and manpower recovery is concerned for manpower recovery calculations:

National manpower stacks additively with things like barracks, local manpower modifiers and such
Manpower recovery modifiers are multiplicative on top of it.

 

[KRBLACK]

I am playing with how manpower and manpower modifiers work and would like to know what has the most effect on the manpower recovery. National manpower modifier, manpower recovery speed or additional mil development.

In may calculation based on WIKI formula, it seems the both national manpower modifier and manpower recovery speed have same effect. In other words, 50% of one of these modifiers will increase the recovery same way, but the national manpower modifier also increases the total value of manpower.

Thanks

If you have a choice between 20% national manpower or 20% manpower recovery, then national manpower is objectively better because as you stated it also increases your cap.

However, these modifiers multiply off eachother, meaning its best to have a bit of both.

110% national manpower * 110% recovery = 121% monthly manpower gain

 

[Jarvin]

If you have a choice between 20% national manpower or 20% manpower recovery, then national manpower is objectively better because as you stated it also increases your cap.

However, these modifiers multiply off eachother, meaning its best to have a bit of both.

110% national manpower * 110% recovery = 121% monthly manpower gain

That's not how it works

 

[KRBLACK]

That's not how it works

Well then enlighten me.

 

[Jarvin]

Well then enlighten me.

Explained it above.
Total manpower stacks additively with stuff like barracks and various other sources of local manpower. Manpower recovery is added multiplicatively on top of that.

 

[Distinct]

In practice that means, MPR is more effective at raising manpower gained per month, because there are less MPR modifiers than global+provincial manpower modifiers.

example: 1.2*2.7 versus 1.4*2.5.

 

[CharbelGH]

That's not how it works

Pretty sure it is

 

[Cancerofthehead]

Explained it above.
Total manpower stacks additively with stuff like barracks and various other sources of local manpower. Manpower recovery is added multiplicatively on top of that.

In what way does that contradict what he said.

If your base monthly manpower is 1,000 and you get +20% total manpower your monthly manpower goes up to 1,200 (1,000 * 1.2).

If you got +20% Manpower recover you get 1,200 (1,000*1.2).

If you get 10% total manpower and 10% manpower recovery your monthly gain becomes 1,210 (1,000*1.1*1.1).

 

[CharbelGH]

I can never get my numbers to completely match the wiki formula, but in general, yes max manpower is better than recovery.

For example, here is the delta between calculated and observed, using the wiki formula.

I believe both are important. one becomes more important than the other when its value is too low compare to the other because you multiply the two numbers, when they are close to each other, it's better overall since 0.8*0.1 is way worse than 0.4*0.5. (0.08 vs 0.2).

If your manpower modifier is less than 40% focus on it since you usually start the game with a 10-20% recovery based in the nation, otherwise focus on national recovery because you don't have much. This combination of both would give you an edge when you start losing soldiers and getting near the bottom and u don't want to lose the war.

I was able to get the same value on Manpower as you did by doing
"The Base Value"(given for as addition) 10,000 + "From Provinces"(The base value) 25667 = 35,667*Sum of national modifiers(1.15)= 41.017.05. Pretty sure they round it.

Regarding Recovery i usually get the same value unless there are negative numbers by Doing

"Base Value"+"From provinces"*1+sumofNationalManpowers"*"1+sumof recovery"= 10.000+25667*1.15*1.29= 48.077/120= 400 which is close enough.

Whenever they are negative values i adjust it and it becomes real close, i apply the war exhaustion to both numbers so:

"Base Value"+"From provinces"*1+sumofNationalManpowers"*"1+sumof positive recovery" =10.000+25667*1.15*1.314 = 48,785

Then i discount the negative war exhaustion by doing 48785*97.6%= 396.78 (Close enough)

It took me around 2 hours to figure out and i bet it is accurate only way to know is test it on negative recovery.
was not able to post it as reply to the answer because the filter keep stoping me

 

[Jarvin]

In what way does that contradict what he said.

If your base monthly manpower is 1,000 and you get +20% total manpower your monthly manpower goes up to 1,200 (1,000 * 1.2).

If you got +20% Manpower recover you get 1,200 (1,000*1.2).

If you get 10% total manpower and 10% manpower recovery your monthly gain becomes 1,210 (1,000*1.1*1.1).

There's no such thing as "base monthly manpower".


Think about it this way:
We're an OPM with a 10/10/10 province that has training fields(+100% local manpower) and it already has +50% manpower recovery from, say, quantity ideas.
So as base we have: 10*250*(1+100%)*(1+50%)=7500 manpower and 7500 /120=62 manpower recovery

Now, let's way we have to choose between getting +50% global manpower and +50% manpower recovery:

If we get +50% global manpower we get 10*250*(1+100%)*(1+100%)=10000 manpower and 10000/120 = 83 manpower recovery
If, on the other hand, we get +50% manpower recovery we get still +7500 to manpower cap but (7500/120)*1.5=93 manpower recovery.




So tl;dr: manpower recovery better at increasing manpower recovery
+% manpower better at increasing manpower cap but still increases manpower recovery to some degree.
They do NOT have the exact same effect.


also if we get +25% manpower rec and 25% global manpower we get 8750 manpower cap and 91 manpower rec
should give some perspective too.

 

[Cancerofthehead]

Base means, unmodified. When you are starting with modifiers, and different modifiers at that, you get different results.

As to your calculations, you seem to have missed parts of it or the formula and assumpitons. To start with you are using the manpower recovery speed to modifier your manpower pool in the first calculation, but the additional manpower recovery is applied separately?

Using the formula from the Wiki (which you said is correct) for a OPM is:

Monthly Manpower = (10,000 + (250*Manpower Dev*(1+provincial manpower modifiers+national manpower modifiers))*(1+Manpower recovery modifier))/250

With a 10 manpower province and no modifiers (I tested a few of these in game but without modding finding the right mix of modifiers is difficult to test everything):

• Monthly Manpower = (10,000 + (250*10*(1+0+0))*(1+0))/120 = 104
• 
  
• With a 10 manpower province and 100% Provincial Manpower modifiers:
• 
  
• Monthly Manpower = (10,000 + (250*10*(1+1+0))*(1+0))/120 = 125
• 
  
• With a 10 manpower province and 100% National Manpower modifiers:
• 
  
• Monthly Manpower = (10,000 + (250*10*(1+0+1))*(1+0))/120 = 125
• 
  
• With a 10 manpower province and 100% Manpower Recovery modifiers:
• 
  
• Monthly Manpower = (10,000 + (250*10*(1+0+0))*(1+1))/120 = 125
• 
  
• With a 10 manpower province and 50% National Manpower (or Provincial Manpower) and 50% Manpower Recovery modifiers:
• 
  
• Monthly Manpower = (10,000 + (250*10*(1+0+0.5))*(1+0.5))/120 = 130

So we are back to, your optimal situation to maximize manpower recovery (generally much more important than your max manpower pool as you should be below your cap almost all the time) is that your Manpower Pool Modifier equals your Manpower Recovery Modifier. In light of that, since your manpower pool modifiers are a lot easier to get to a very high level, manpower recovery modifiers are almost always better.

In your examples, despite the numbers not making much sense, the fact that your starting point has a much higher Manpower Pool Modifier means that the Manpower Recovery will be better because it makes them more balanced.

This goes for everything in the game, when dealing with positive modifiers that multiply each other you are best if they are equal. When dealing with negative additive modifiers that multiply each other you want to maximize one of the modifiers.

 

[myrogia]

As Jarvin said. Manpower recovery is significantly more valuable than national manpower modifiers because of just how ridiculously abundant national manpower modifiers are. Every country in the game essentially has a base of +125% manpower from manpower building and state edict. Then there are reforms that also give manpower (monarchy one gives 15% I think off the top of my head), higher tier Defender of the Faith bonus, religion bonus (Orthodox), national ideas, and ideas.

Compare that to manpower recovery. 20% if you have access to a nobility estate and up to 10% from army tradition, 20% from quantity, maybe 10% from policy, and then maybe another 10-20% from ideas, religion, or Prussia.

In MP, where these modifiers are being maximized, it's normal for countries to have almost +200% manpower without national ideas or Orthodox, but they'll cap at around 50-60% recovery assuming they have nobility estate and no specific ideas.

This means manpower recovery can range from being anywhere from twice as valuable as national manpower to 4-5 times as valuable in terms of manpower per month. Depending on how much you're focusing on increasing manpower.