I am currently working on redoing shia as well as the whole islamic group what all you have done so far?
Manichaeism in The Horse Lords: A Love Letter
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I am currently working on redoing shia as well as the whole islamic group what all you have done so far?
Manichaeism should be a faith of it's own, and I guess Paradox would have time for it as they also had time to create Zunism for Charlemagne, and unlike Manichaeism that's actually made up - the historical "Zunists" seem to have been Buddhists or Hindus who happened to worship an extra god called Zun, not monotheists. Of course I don't want to offend the law-giver or his disciples on here, I just want to say that an actual, historical religion deserves the same amount of developer attention.
Regarding the Druze, I think having them as an Islamic heresy in the CK2 timeframe makes sense, at least if my limited, Wikipedia-based knowledge is accurate and they started out as a Shia movement one faction of which considered al-Hakim (Fatimid) to be Allah himself.
Regarding the Druze, I think having them as an Islamic heresy in the CK2 timeframe makes sense, at least if my limited, Wikipedia-based knowledge is accurate and they started out as a Shia movement one faction of which considered al-Hakim (Fatimid) to be Allah himself.
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Druze are quite suitable as heresy. In my own MOD they stayed as Shia heresy which received Reincarnation, learning bonus to rulers and lost Muslim polygamy.
Well, I have to admit my own knowledge on the subject is somewhat limited - I've mainly just browsed the internet for any reliable looking sources. There does seem to be a bit of a lack of documentation on Druze history though - from what I understand very few original sources survive from their early history (early 11th century to around 1450) and much of what has was written by outsiders. I don't know how in-depth you want the information to be but this site gives a range of information on the history and beliefs (though there may be some bias there as it's written from the perspective of the Druze themselves):
http://www.druzeheritage.org/dhf/Druze_History.asp
I think that's a very reasonable conclusion - Druze did start as an offshoot of Isma'ilism (one of the branches of Shia) after all. I'd argue that it could still warrant inclusion as a seperate faith though as neither Muslims nor the Druze themselves consider the faith as part of Islam, and also because it's incorporates as many aspects of other religions (if not more) as it does from Islam. Also having more religions to play as/conquer the world with is always fun.
Anyway - I realise this is kind of off topic (this thread is for discussion of Manichaeism after all) - I just wanted to raise the possibility of adding in a group of these relatively 'minor' religions all together as their situations are somewhat similar.
Back on topic, for anyone interested in reliable information on the Manicheans, you can see the Encyclopedia Iranica article here: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/manicheism-1-general-survey
Encyclopedia Iranica is something I highly recommend if you want reliable, comprehensive information on the Iranian world and anything related to it that's relatively easier to read compared to some other academic texts.
For Manichean heresies, I made a thread on that a while back in the suggestions subforum. My recommendations for heresies would at minimum be the Denawar/Dinavariya and the Mandaeans, though other gnostic groups could be added to beef up the list (link: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...esies-for-manicheism-yazidi-and-druze.855768/). Link also includes possible Yazidi and Druze heresies, for anyone interested.
Encyclopedia Iranica is something I highly recommend if you want reliable, comprehensive information on the Iranian world and anything related to it that's relatively easier to read compared to some other academic texts.
For Manichean heresies, I made a thread on that a while back in the suggestions subforum. My recommendations for heresies would at minimum be the Denawar/Dinavariya and the Mandaeans, though other gnostic groups could be added to beef up the list (link: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...esies-for-manicheism-yazidi-and-druze.855768/). Link also includes possible Yazidi and Druze heresies, for anyone interested.
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Personally, I think Yazidi is one of the most important religions to split, since it is so unique and has little to do with Islam (in fact, it was crushed by Islam for centuries). I know nothing about Manicheanism, bit you've pretty much convinced me that it should be its own faith in-game.
Little too do...? Adam and Eve, Monotheism (with Angels), the founder was a Muslim from the Caliph's family... Many basic things about Yazidi are Islamic. Don't confuse Yazidis and Yazdanism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazdânism
I will start a thread tomorrow concerning it but would be more than happy to share what I have since you guys at Monotheism seem to have it all nailed anyways.
I didn't have time to reply sooner regarding heresies and Samarkand in the other Manichaean thread as lots of RL stuff happening this week but if you don't mind I can do it here.
The Turfan collection of manuscripts in Hamburg contains letters from what appears to be an Archegos with his seat there who had jurisdiction ranging between the Oxus and China. The seat is most likely based in Chotco near Turfan.
Miqlassija and Mihr appear as the two factions which comprise the Manichaean church from the late 7th to early 8th century onwards. The origin of the split, as mention in the Iranica article in the Denawar, appears to stem from differences in Orthopraxy rather than Orthodoxy. Mani commanded that it was sinful for animals to be domesticated. When the Archegos in Ctesiphon, Mihr, was seen riding a donkey through the city he was deemed to be sinful and so the easterners split. A desctiption of the split and the Archegos, including a nice anecdote about some Manichaean nuns drawing well water, can be found in Lieu's Manichaeaism in Central Asia and China, from p. 93. Parts of the book are open on google, including the page I describe. https://books.google.de/books/about...ia_and_China.html?id=Yl2DteLY8jcC&redir_esc=y
Although this schism was healed by the late 8th to early 9th century by the Archegos of the West, Abu Hilal al-Dayhuri, it seems that it was something which was a consistent cause for fracturing with the Western Manichaeans. It appears to have happened quite frequently between the eastern and western branches (I don't have the source which mentions theh frequent splits on hand at the moment). This is surprising to me as life on the Steppes would mean domesticating animals like horses would be far more important to survival than Manichaeans in the cities of the west. I would have assumed the Uighars would be more relaxed about it. Regardless, I suspect that it is far more about power than about religion to be honest. Ctesiphon is a long way from Chotcho and a lot of influence can be weilded that far on the periphery if you have a grand title, especially if the local King is a believer.
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With yesterdays dev diary we now have the Tarim basin in game as well as the mighty Uyghar khanate! It really is an excellent oppoortunity to revamp Manichaeaism. It is the last major world religion that needs some love (it was certainly major at the time) and deserves to be rescued from being a Zoroastrian heresy.
The first Uyghar khan, Qutlugh, converted in 762 and was very successful in converting the tribe in his lifetime. In fact Qutlugh is already in game as the Kirgiz Duke in the CM start (Paradox, if he every found out about that he would ride to Paradox tower with his horde and pillage you so hard! Uyghars hated the Kirgiz). With Qutlugh already present, there shouldn't need to be major changes to be made to history files.
If Paradox do ever choose to add China (it seems to be a pretty big if even now) Manichaeaism was present along the Northwestern Borders, four provinces along the Yellow river which were large temples established by the Tang dynasty themselves and they would later establish their own last temple, that even survives to this day, in Fukien in the later Middle Ages.
I am pretty excited about spreading the word of the Lord of Light to the slighlty less unwashed pigs of the east as Qutlugh and his ilk. Holy war for Rome or bust!
The first Uyghar khan, Qutlugh, converted in 762 and was very successful in converting the tribe in his lifetime. In fact Qutlugh is already in game as the Kirgiz Duke in the CM start (Paradox, if he every found out about that he would ride to Paradox tower with his horde and pillage you so hard! Uyghars hated the Kirgiz). With Qutlugh already present, there shouldn't need to be major changes to be made to history files.
If Paradox do ever choose to add China (it seems to be a pretty big if even now) Manichaeaism was present along the Northwestern Borders, four provinces along the Yellow river which were large temples established by the Tang dynasty themselves and they would later establish their own last temple, that even survives to this day, in Fukien in the later Middle Ages.
I am pretty excited about spreading the word of the Lord of Light to the slighlty less unwashed pigs of the east as Qutlugh and his ilk. Holy war for Rome or bust!
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To elaborate a bit more, though, that certain temple has been converted to a Buddhist temple. The main "Buddha" statue is if I recall correctly actually a statue of Mani done in the Chinese-influenced style.
Yes the Fukien temple is Buddhist now although it was initially designed that way so they could hide under the radar from the authorities. The statue is a representation of Mani as the Buddha of light and the style is indeed a Chinese representation of a Persian. The "Buddha" in question had a Moustache and the statues robes were painted in the same manner as a Manichaean priests (white with a specific red pattern). In the late nineteenth, early twentieth century an itinerant Buddhist monk chiseled away the moustache and scrubbed the paint away as he was adamant that was not what the Buddha looked like.
Unfortunatley the Fukien temple was only found after the Cultural Revolution and much was destroyed at the site. Ethnographers scrambled to the area to figure out what they could and it appears that the Manichaeans, cut off for centuries and under state terror from the Ming to Mao, had become sycretistic in their practices and had become virtually indistinguishable from the cities Buddhists. They are there, but they just don't know it.
Unfortunatley the Fukien temple was only found after the Cultural Revolution and much was destroyed at the site. Ethnographers scrambled to the area to figure out what they could and it appears that the Manichaeans, cut off for centuries and under state terror from the Ming to Mao, had become sycretistic in their practices and had become virtually indistinguishable from the cities Buddhists. They are there, but they just don't know it.
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Aye, I think I told you about the research paper I did a while back and my conclusions were that there are definitely possible traces of Manicheism in some Chinese subcultures though nothing I could confirm as certainy, though more so because this was just an undergraduate sort-of thesis/paper so I didn't have the time or resources to look further.
Yes that's the one! Actually in the picture you can clearly see the Manichaean priestly symbols on his robe although I suspect that they may have added those in the last few years once academics showed interest in the site. I doubt they are "original" so to speak.
The Yazidis don't recognise Mohammad as a Prophet, there's no way they can be considered Muslim heretics if they disagree with the main principle of the Muslim religion (Mohammad is the prophet of God)
Oh undoubtedly so. Near the close of the 9th century Mani began to be regarded as an incarnation of Lao Tzu, the "founder" of Taoism, in some circles of Taoist thought. By the time of the Yuan dynasty the Manichaeans in Fukien succeeded in getting authorities to include a Chinese Manichaean text, The Sutra of the Two Principles and the Three Moments, in the official Taoist canon.
In his history of 1351 and the outbreak of the Red Turban rebellion, the contemporary Chinese historian Wu Han was emphatic that the main religious text of the rebels was the Manichaean Sutra on the Coming to the World of the Greater and Lesser Kings of Light. Zhu Yuanzhang himself later abandoned the Manichaean belief system in order to secure mainstream support for his claim to the Mandate of Heaven.
There would be a lot of research to be done on the extent to which Manichaeism influenced the smaller religious sects that popped up in rebellion throughout the course of Chinese history. I reckon the Chinese government would fork out money for researchers.
If Paradox did add China, the Manichaeans would play a central role in the Red Turban rebellion against the Mongols and their ultimate downfall.
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