Manchuria "obedience" section of tree needs rework

[Robosoldier1]

Given how the new data paradox has shown about the Manchurian tree and the enormous disparity between going "obedient" verses "assertive" makes me think there needs to a bit more viability when it comes to staying compliant to the Japanese. Overall the emphasis is for the benefits to be more long term goals to obtain as opposed to the short term assertive bonuses acquired through that section of the tree. (keep in mind this is a scenario where Japan doesn't develop Manchuria but Manchuria trying to develop itself).

1. Add more stability options: alot of what makes Manchuria ineffective is its inherent stability problems which is defiantly a characteristic of the time period but just hamstrangs them overall within the balance of the game. Especially since they are hampered by the wars Japan drags them into, the absurd national spirit "low legitimacy" and the fact they have no PP generator to help them to make use of the event/decision system enough to make it worthwhile.

2. needs more Military development: Manchuria starts off really weak militarily and while again that fits the theme well there doesn't seem much you can do about it. Given that your the lowest level of a Japanese puppet and much of what you have will go to the Japanese. So you remain a token power. Your only hope is for Japan (which you really will only get within multiplayer) to give you a large piece of China but that really comes at the fact they want you to become a resource hub and nothing much which is boring as hell. So either give more mils through focuses that the Manchurians can keep or make it so there are more options for Manchuria to perhaps trade resources for supplies from the

3. Puppet system: This overall is the big punishment for Manchuria. Them being a puppet is what really derives most of these issues. Which again is a relevant factor but just takes so long to get out of the perpetual state of the crap puppet level. At least allow it to raise up one level so it can have some more back bone.

 

[KalypsoKirin]

I think it's more for the challenge of it, and because Qing China is a better goal than "complete x focus to make AI japan give you all of China."

 

[Robosoldier1]

I think it's more for the challenge of it, and because Qing China is a better goal than "complete x focus to make AI japan give you all of China."

Problem is you have no significant bearing on the china war. It all depends on how effective the Japanese player/AI is. Which can go either way. So your entirely dependent on whether they succeed so you can bank off their success. You can perhaps spit out 10, 20 widths before the war starts but you can't really sustain that as you only have 1-2 mils factory producing rifles. With only like 7 of your own civs to build stuff which you will not produce anything of worth for a long while. Either way obedience is a bit lackluster and needs to have a bit more bearing throughout the entirety of the game if they choose to side with the Japanese. At the same time assertiveness doesn't make much sense in my opinion. You somehow gain more industrial capacity simply because you want to fight a different enemy? Its just weird.

 

[War_lord]

Manchukou was a barely functioning cover for Japanese exploitation of Manchuria's resources. Of course it's a weak unstable mess if you don't take the ahistoric option.

 

[Robosoldier1]

Manchukou was a barely functioning cover for Japanese exploitation of Manchuria's resources. Of course it's a weak unstable mess if you don't take the ahistoric option.

Ya and I ain't disagreeing with that. But they can have some means to help alleviate it over time and make it more viable both with its internal efforts and efforts made by the Japanese AI/player is willing to invest in them (with land not with those development focuses). Thats why I'm saying make additions or refine that section of the tree to include long term political and economic overhauls that go past the simple and minuscule 5 year plan program option. Which would increase the interest of that section of the tree and make the minor a bit more viable.

 

[War_lord]

Ya and I ain't disagreeing with that. But they can have some means to help alleviate it over time and make it more viable both with its internal efforts and efforts made by the Japanese AI/player is willing to invest in them (with land not with those development focuses). Thats why I'm saying make additions or refine that section of the tree to include long term political and economic overhauls that go past the minuscule 5 year plan bonus. So that they can overall make that part of the tree more interesting so there is more worth playing it.

I don't see why, as I said Manchukou was literally dysfunctional, and the Japanese had no interest in ever solving that, as it suited them to keep their puppet dependent on the Kwantung army. The puppet Manchukou tree is uninteresting and weak, because Manchukou was weak.

 

[hkrommel]

The Obedience tree is there so the AI can follow it. Not every path should be interesting.

 

[Robosoldier1]

I don't see why, as I said Manchukou was literally dysfunctional, and the Japanese had no interest in ever solving that, as it suited them to keep their puppet dependent on the Kwantung army. The puppet Manchukou tree is uninteresting and weak, because Manchukou was weak.

Think of it like this you can practically go down the assertive route but still remain under the thumb of the Japanese. "assertiveness" really doesn't imply anything either then you are internally mobilizing, who you are mobilizing against is still entirely up to the player. You don't have to take the focus and war with Japan.

Which is the entire issue, you can completely work around the lackluster benefits of the obedience tree while still full-filling whatever objective you have for yourself because the majority of the benefits derive from that section of the tree. Still want large sections of china? The Japanese player can give them to you. Want to become more aggressive and useful in the ground war while maintaining your factory count? You become a higher puppet level and even free because the assertive tree leap frogs you forward to that point. You put yourself in a better position to both help yourself and Japan since the other tree clearly is better at addressing your own misgivings.

As opposed to Obedience section which just sidelines you and essentially makes you become a resource hub. With barely any mobility given the time it takes to move up within the puppet system and how utterly shot your stability turns out with a slow grind to recuperate.

In essence either some things need to be distributed a bit better or some new additions need to be added to obedience. At least have the option of being able to get rid of low legitimacy on the obedience side.

 

[Ryousan2k]

The problem with Obedience route is that it doesnt seem to be working as the Devs said it would.

Finally, by allying with the Kwantung Army, you can position yourself as the natural leader of China from the Japanese perspective and get all captured Chinese territories turned over to you. Only then can you gain some autonomy and finally arrive at an equal standing with your supposed “Brother-Emperor”.

The idea behind it was Manchukuop taking greater advantage as its status as Japanese Protectorate, benefitting from their military and industrial expertiser while slowly but surely presenting yourself as the Natural leader in Chinese Affair within the Co-Properity Spehre. Japan should not have a Reorganzied China nor any other puppet, it should it territorial due and give the rest to Manchukuo. as it was apparently intended

 

[Robosoldier1]

The problem with Obedience route is that it doesnt seem to be working as the Devs said it would.



The idea behind it was Manchukuop taking greater advantage as its status as Japanese Protectorate, benefitting from their military and industrial expertiser while slowly but surely presenting yourself as the Natural leader in Chinese Affair within the Co-Properity Spehre. Japan should not have a Reorganzied China nor any other puppet, it should it territorial due and give the rest to Manchukuo. as it was apparently intended

if you select the "national Cooperation government" focus China essentially becomes Manchurian cores and the territory does get handed over to them. However they still face the stability and puppet issue at the same time your entirely reliant on the Japanese player. Which is boring as hell. At least have some leniency in allowing Manchuria to have more capability for fighting over their old stomping grounds instead of just praying japan can do it for them. Again you can gain those territories back (not cores but still) after the peace screen if you go down the assertive tree while overall just helping Japan deal with China. Especially since you dont get the debuffs from the Marco polo bridge incident.

 

[Ryousan2k]

if you select the "national Cooperation government" focus China essentially becomes Manchurian cores and the territory does get handed over to them. However they still face the stability and puppet issue at the same time your entirely reliant on the Japanese player. Which is boring as hell. At least have some leniency in allowing Manchuria to have more capability for fighting over their old stomping grounds instead of just praying japan can do it for them. Again you can gain those territories back (not cores but still) after the peace screen if you go down the assertive tree while overall just helping Japan deal with China. Especially since you dont get the debuffs from the Marco polo bridge incident.

I think the idea is to give Manchukuo a more quiet start to build to a latter confrontation after they have all of CHina to pick their own battles, Granted that they still should be able to do something about their stability problems, by the thing is that it doesnt make much sense if you remain under Japan`s wings. One way its could have been solved was by making the last Two Foci of the Assertive Bramnch (Move the Capital and Claim the Mandate of heaven) shared between the two branches. But the, it wouldnt make much sense