• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

macky527

Captain
26 Badges
Feb 11, 2018
334
362
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
I feel that Manchuria right now needs a bit of a fix. with "Udege" tag not being where Udege tag belongs, Nivkh using copypasted Manchu names (not even in the same language family, come on!) and having not one but two synonymous "generic" flags (Yeren, Donghai). So in this suggestion I will repurpose Yeren and Donghai into more sensible tags, as well as generally making this region more accurate.

1640878788123.png
This is my suggested 1444 setup.
Ainu now owns Sakhalin and the Kurils. This is because these regions were Ainu too, not just Hokkaido. This also makes Ainu a bit more interesting.
Nivkh now doesn't have it's core territory as different religions, northern Sakhalin should start off Tengri. Also a new Nivkh culture which exists in all of their provinces. For a list of Nivkh male and female names to use, go here. If you do not want Nivkh culture, just have Nivkh use these names in common/countries rather than copy pasting from Manchus. They also start with the Amur Estuary in Deren (renamed into Tyr)
Solon has been expanded to include the originally Oroqen land that Yeren starts with. The Oroqen can deserve their own tag, but overall, without adding new tags, this is better. I would add an Oroqen tag here if there was space for it. Also the province of Urkan is renamed "Albazin", and Solon's capital moves to this province.
Udege has been moved to copy where Donghai goes right now, as that is where Udege people live. Possibility to either rename this tag "Orochon" (a name including Udege and the Orochs), or "Woji". Should still use Udege flag.
Donghai has been moved inland and it would be renamed "Nanai" (or "Hurha", if Udege is renamed Woji). For it's flag, use this, as I cannot find a single reference to the current Donghai flag outside of EU4.
1640879226545.png
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Nanaysky_rayon_(Khabarovsk_kray).png).

Yeren has been also moved, and renamed "Xibe". The Xibe were subjugated by Korchin in 1438, so they should start as a vassal of Korchin in-game and possibly have a truce. Also, this should be Xibe's flag:
1640879438828.png

Jianzhou's capital should be Hetu Ala, as Huncun was not in the traditional Jianzhou territory anyways, and Hetu Ala was the base of the Aisin Gioro.. Haixi's capital should also move to Yehe as that's the base of the Yehe tribe, leaders of Haixi in-game.

A Warka tag composing Fu'erhe, Furdan, Huncun and Ningguta would be nice but is kinda optional.

Province Renames
Deren (1050) -> Tyr
Tyr was an actual Nivkh village (Deren was Ulchi), the city currently matches Tyr rather than Deren, and Tyr was the center of the Nurgan Comission which was disestablished less than 10 years prior to 1444. This province should also host the Amur Estuary.
Ulch (4216) -> Oroch
Ulch people lived in the province north of this, mainly, while the area of this province was inhabited by Orochs instead. Potential city name can be Datta.
Kalar (4214) -> Ulch
This is where Ulchs lived, rather than the current province. City name should be Tehcha (modern Bogorodskoye)
Urkan (2102) -> Albazin
Albazin was the capital of the Solon Khanate irl, and would be a city of importance in the area. I would ideally shift Halacha to include Albazin, but I wanna be somewhat conservative here.
Wolanhe (4656) -> Samarga
Major river here, one of the main centers of the Udege, prime location for their new capital.

Shilimian (4655) -> Sydagou
Could not find where this province's name comes from, so it's named after a river here.
Kuru (2105) -> Urmi
Could not find where this province's name comes from, so it's named after a river here.
Yaran (1850) -> Tarfun
Could not find where this province's name comes from, so it's named after a river here.
Edala (4661) -> Ula
Could not find where this province's name comes from, so it's named after the Ula and their main center.
Nangha'er (4658) -> Noglvo
Could not find where this province's name comes from, so it's named after a Nivkh settlement in modern Nogliki.
Sakhalin (1033) -> Enchiw
This province is not all of Sakhalin anymore. This is the name of the Sakhalin Ainu.
 
  • 7
  • 6Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
This would be the perfect manchuria with the current restrictions on map changes (Y)

really hope they take the time to fix this before closing the game, haven't been able to look at manchuria since the manchu patch
 
This would be the perfect manchuria with the current restrictions on map changes (Y)

really hope they take the time to fix this before closing the game, haven't been able to look at manchuria since the manchu patch
Yea, this is why I tried making it a very conservative suggestion, so that paradox can hopefully do this, and i am 100% sure renaming tags and changing flags isn't a big deal. I mean whenever I play nivkh i always manually name my generals and rulers to use Nivkh names hahaha
 
@macky527 Your proposal for changes in Manchuria has been heard
- Manchuria Overhaul with the addition of Nivkh culture, Korchin having a vassal, redistribution of provinces and addition of the Amur
 
  • 2Love
Reactions:
@macky527 Your proposal for changes in Manchuria has been heard
- Manchuria Overhaul with the addition of Nivkh culture, Korchin having a vassal, redistribution of provinces and addition of the Amur
Oh my god! Didn't expect paradox to actually listen to me tbh. But yes finally vanilla Manchuria is fixed! :D
 
  • 3
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Oh my god! Didn't expect paradox to actually listen to me tbh. But yes finally vanilla Manchuria is fixed! :D

As long as they also rename Udeghe tag... Really hoping we won't be let down by this :p
 
As long as they also rename Udeghe tag... Really hoping we won't be let down by this :p

But nevertheless really excited to see al the work and all the fuss we made about this topic to be listened to.

Also a mention that they might be consdiering adding provicnes in future patches, nothing promsied but just teasing us that it's not an impossibility XD
 
I feel that Manchuria right now needs a bit of a fix. with "Udege" tag not being where Udege tag belongs, Nivkh using copypasted Manchu names (not even in the same language family, come on!) and having not one but two synonymous "generic" flags (Yeren, Donghai). So in this suggestion I will repurpose Yeren and Donghai into more sensible tags, as well as generally making this region more accurate.

View attachment 790236This is my suggested 1444 setup.
Ainu now owns Sakhalin and the Kurils. This is because these regions were Ainu too, not just Hokkaido. This also makes Ainu a bit more interesting.
Nivkh now doesn't have it's core territory as different religions, northern Sakhalin should start off Tengri. Also a new Nivkh culture which exists in all of their provinces. For a list of Nivkh male and female names to use, go here. If you do not want Nivkh culture, just have Nivkh use these names in common/countries rather than copy pasting from Manchus. They also start with the Amur Estuary in Deren (renamed into Tyr)
Solon has been expanded to include the originally Oroqen land that Yeren starts with. The Oroqen can deserve their own tag, but overall, without adding new tags, this is better. I would add an Oroqen tag here if there was space for it. Also the province of Urkan is renamed "Albazin", and Solon's capital moves to this province.
Udege has been moved to copy where Donghai goes right now, as that is where Udege people live. Possibility to either rename this tag "Orochon" (a name including Udege and the Orochs), or "Woji". Should still use Udege flag.
Donghai has been moved inland and it would be renamed "Nanai" (or "Hurha", if Udege is renamed Woji). For it's flag, use this, as I cannot find a single reference to the current Donghai flag outside of EU4. View attachment 790239 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Nanaysky_rayon_(Khabarovsk_kray).png).
Yeren has been also moved, and renamed "Xibe". The Xibe were subjugated by Korchin in 1438, so they should start as a vassal of Korchin in-game and possibly have a truce. Also, this should be Xibe's flag: View attachment 790240
Jianzhou's capital should be Hetu Ala, as Huncun was not in the traditional Jianzhou territory anyways, and Hetu Ala was the base of the Aisin Gioro.. Haixi's capital should also move to Yehe as that's the base of the Yehe tribe, leaders of Haixi in-game.

A Warka tag composing Fu'erhe, Furdan, Huncun and Ningguta would be nice but is kinda optional.

Province Renames
Deren (1050) -> Tyr
Tyr was an actual Nivkh village (Deren was Ulchi), the city currently matches Tyr rather than Deren, and Tyr was the center of the Nurgan Comission which was disestablished less than 10 years prior to 1444. This province should also host the Amur Estuary.
Ulch (4216) -> Oroch
Ulch people lived in the province north of this, mainly, while the area of this province was inhabited by Orochs instead. Potential city name can be Datta.
Kalar (4214) -> Ulch
This is where Ulchs lived, rather than the current province. City name should be Tehcha (modern Bogorodskoye)
Urkan (2102) -> Albazin
Albazin was the capital of the Solon Khanate irl, and would be a city of importance in the area. I would ideally shift Halacha to include Albazin, but I wanna be somewhat conservative here.
Wolanhe (4656) -> Samarga
Major river here, one of the main centers of the Udege, prime location for their new capital.

Shilimian (4655) -> Sydagou
Could not find where this province's name comes from, so it's named after a river here.
Kuru (2105) -> Urmi
Could not find where this province's name comes from, so it's named after a river here.
Yaran (1850) -> Tarfun
Could not find where this province's name comes from, so it's named after a river here.
Edala (4661) -> Ula
Could not find where this province's name comes from, so it's named after the Ula and their main center.
Nangha'er (4658) -> Noglvo
Could not find where this province's name comes from, so it's named after a Nivkh settlement in modern Nogliki.
Sakhalin (1033) -> Enchiw
This province is not all of Sakhalin anymore. This is the name of the Sakhalin Ainu.
u still didnt see the problem Korchin and Uriankhai
 
Uriankhai, if I don't misremember were mongols who basically joined Ming and became a guard just north of beijing, basically southern korchin,

Now since mongolia was a very fractured state at the time, nominally being governed by a borjigid khan but many more or less independent princes or tribes, some becoming tributaries guards to Ming.

I don't remember the exact sequence of things cause a lot happen in quick succesion but me, @JKiller96 and @Semi-Lobster (huh maybe not a user anymore) worked quite a lot on a mongolia set up a few years ago
 
I did this back in 2017 (geez time really runs) and designed a sketch for a mini HRE system in mongolia

So an initial tumen system would start with Oirats as great khan with about 6-7 tumen marches. I.e. tumens would work more like marches than vassals. They do not contribute money, they do however contribute to force limit. They also would have their own set of unique interactions,

Great Khan are locked to kingdom rank
tumens are locked to duchy rank

Tumen vassals take no diplo slot, and if the khan vassalizes any other steppe horde it automatically becomes a tumen march. Other steppe hordes will be able to go for the great khan title and if they win it they'd gain all existing tumens as their marches.

To facilitate the tumen system, I am developing an idea mainly based on the native federations.
All members get a shield in the corner, and they are all alloted an imperial authority meter, which is based on their prestige and something else related to military power (could for example be size of the army or number of provinces)
Imperial authority also directly gives cavalry combat ability on a scale there 100 IA gives 10% CA
Great khan also has +5 discipline and plus 1.0 land leader shock

Every time a Great Khan dies, the tumen with the highest IA becomes new Great Khan. But also if the great Khan loses a war, a new "election" is held

Thus, a tumen can declare war on the great khan, they can't directly take the title as it's done with the emperor of china title, instead their goal would be to ensure the great Khan's IA is lower than their own after the war is over.

Tumen's still have their standard liberty desire, and will also act accordingly to that, making them hard to really control, if they have over 50% LD they won't joing overlords wars. Also the great khan can choose whether he will defend an attacked Tumen or not (causing a prestige loss if he chooses to remain passive). Defending a tumen will call all loyal tumens and normal allies into the war with the great khan as war leader.
Tumens can declare their own wars between each other and against the great khan as well as other entities, ideally there should be a mechanic making it somewhat harder to expand. (something like making province cost more peacescore)
However foreign powers can not support independence for Tumens.

The tumens would be
Khalka
Chahar
Uriankhai
Yünshüyebu
Tümed
Ordos
 
@macky527I think you made a slight mistake in the name of the country orochon omitting the letter i.
Orochon is the name of the Oroqen people.
at least that's what he writes on Wikipedia

The Oroqen people (simplified Chinese: 鄂伦春族; traditional Chinese: 鄂倫春族; pinyin: Èlúnchūnzú; Mongolian: Orčun; also spelt Orochen or Orochon)

the country should be called Orochoni.

Until the end of the 19th, beginning of the 20th century researchers (Russian and Western) did not separate Udege and Oroch, considering them one people (often called Orochoni).
 
personally I don't like using the tribal name Orochon for a tag, I would have prefered Donghai, as it would mean all the tribes living by the sea.

Well at least it's roughly in the right area
 
personally I don't like using the tribal name Orochon for a tag, I would have prefered Donghai, as it would mean all the tribes living by the sea.

Well at least it's roughly in the right area
I personally would prefer the name Woji/Wuji
The same goes for the name Nanai would prefer the name Hurha.
 
Last edited:
In fact, I am dissatisfied with Xibe, because there is no such name in the historical annals. Xibe is the name of the Jurchen colonists in East Turkestan. Instead of Xibe, it was necessary to give the name Ducher from Russian chronicles. The Russians ruled there for about 30-40 years, or rather they robbed, killed and ruined.
Secondly, Jianzhou had to be divided into Chan-Bo-shan and Jianzhou itself, after the name of the sacred mountain, or in Jurchen Golmin-shanyan-alin.
The Jurchen lands in 1453 are vassal possessions of the Ming Empire. The Ming Empire, and before them the Mongol Yuan Dynasty, did not allow the unification of the Jurchen tribes in such sizes as indicated in the game.
Solon would be better called Dauria, because all European travelers called Dauria. Solon is an exonym, it seems to be translated from Manchu as a reindeer herder, but we know that Daurs lived there, a strong Mongolian-speaking people, the original land for all Mongolian peoples. The Solons consisted of separate independent tribes.
 
Last edited:
I met a version that the Daurs lived up to Modern Yakutia, they point to the Aldan tribe, from whose name the name of the river came, this is in the area of the modern village of Khandyga in Yakutia. But there were very few Daurs in Aldan.
Then, after the arrival of the Russians, because of their brutal behavior, numerous uprisings took place, and the Manchus resettled them south of the Amur River.
Then the Yakut refugee rebels, Daurs, Duchers and Manchurian regular troops united and in a long siege almost completely exterminated the Russian province in Albazin, 1.5 thousand Russian troops died there. The Nerchinsk treaty was concluded.
Then in 1858, after the weakening of the Qing due to the Opium War with Britain and the Taiping Rebellion, the Russians grabbed these lands back, modern Primorsky Krai, Khabarovsk Krai and Amur Oblast. We concluded the Aigun tractate. Some Russians say that the Chinese in their maps depict Siberia as Chinese land. Perhaps some Chinese do not recognize the Aigun treatise.
 
Last edited:
@macky527I think you made a slight mistake in the name of the country orochon omitting the letter i.
Orochon is the name of the Oroqen people.
at least that's what he writes on Wikipedia

The Oroqen people (simplified Chinese: 鄂伦春族; traditional Chinese: 鄂倫春族; pinyin: Èlúnchūnzú; Mongolian: Orčun; also spelt Orochen or Orochon)

the country should be called Orochoni.

Until the end of the 19th, beginning of the 20th century researchers (Russian and Western) did not separate Udege and Oroch, considering them one people (often called Orochoni).
Oh. Must have gotten that mixed up with a variant of the spelling of the Oroch people (Orochon)
 
Orochons could be divided, otherwise they formed a large empire. Southern part of Woji, northern part of Orochon. The southern part is fishermen dressed in clothes made of fish skin, the northern part is reindeer herders.