Managing AE when trying to unite India

[Quantum_AI]

Hey guys,

So I booted up EU4 after a long long while. Figured I'd start by trying to unite India since they got a lot of flavour for their DLC.

As you can see in this screenshot, I beelined to get all the provinces to form Bharat to get free permanent claims on everything. I actually managed to do this by 1550 but diplo-annexing one of my vassals which held one of the required provinces took 35 years!!

Now the thing is even with permanent claims, taking any more than 3-4 of those super juicy north Indian provinces gets me enough AE to get coalitions going as far as North Africa. And diplo-annexing even small vassals is taking forever. I cant even annex existing vassals fast enough, let alone get my enemies to release more.

What's the play here? It just feels like a forced waiting game. I don't mind being punished with coalitions for expansion, but all the way to bloody North Africa? I am just spamming relations with everyone in the Middle East and Central Asia but there is only so much you can do.

 

[Quantum_AI]

Forgot the attachment.

 

[Karst]

I guess the obvious answer is "take Diplomatic, Influence, and/or Espionage ideas", but I assume you've been doing that? More diplomats make it easier to improve relations with potential coalition members. More diplomatic reputation makes it faster to annex vassals and keeps them loyal. Influence+Administrative (which you should obviously also take for such an aggressive run) further decreases diplo annexation cost.

But aside from that, you could always expand more slowly before Absolutism since it becomes so much easier, faster and cheaper afterwards - though I guess it's a little late for that.

 

[holyvigil]

You are too late to manage it effectively now. But when attacking heathens before the 1600s religious is almost a must.

Exception being particular starts like in siberia.

At this point if you just want India you're going to need to wait. If you want more than India find other religions to pick on.

 

[Quantum_AI]

Thanks for the replies guys!

@Karst What exactly will absolutism give? I haven't played in two years so am a bit rusty. Does it lower AE? I thought it just reduces coring cost which is not the hurdle to expansion right now.

@holyvigil Hmmm, I forgot about Deus Vult. That one gives 25% less AE right?

BTW, I am not in any coalition trouble as of right now. I have pissed off the locals beyond repair, but they are too small to matter. I can just beat them into submission.

The problem is that taking a single province in the Gangetic plain is giving me ~50 AE! Even with Deus Vult, it will still be slow going. So just taking 2-3 such provinces even with claims is enough AE to reach all the way to Ottos, Mamluks apparently.

 

[lolada]

That big you can just smack Indians around - no need to watch AE unless you manage to annoy Ottomans.. which is easily possible in this patch. Ally big guys you don't want in coalition if you can - kill others and juggle truces.

Btw if peace deals screen there might be coalition it doesn't mean that much. Unless there's someone big in it just ignore it and keep going. Once you get big guys like Timurids or Ottos inthere then you need to care. But if all of those Indian nations join coalition.. or start to.. just attack them immediately and you are fine.

 

[cuendillar]

Sometimes the best way to keep down AE is to simply annex all countries that starts to get too much of it. Alliances are a must too, while playing in India I secured an alliance with a (stable) Timurids and boosted relations to the max which made them not join a coalition in spite of having 200+ AE with me.

Losing land in peace treaties will decrease your AE quite significantly, doing so for land that you'd anyway get claims on when forming Bharat could reset your AE as a last-ditch measure. What idea groups do you have?

Also note that for a coalition to form there have to be 4 nations with 50+AE, negative relations and no truce. If it's just the Ottos and Mamluks there's no danger as long as no minors join in. Chaining wars to constantly keep weaklings in truces (or annexed) will work to delay a coalition. There's a risk though that such an approach instead fails absolutely spectacularly if you can't keep it up at some point.

 

[Quantum_AI]

@lolada Thanks. Yea you are right. It's just that I am not used to this patch and its concerning to see Ottos or Mamluks wanting to get involved. Why is that? Higher AE propagation?

Also note that for a coalition to form there have to be 4 nations with 50+AE, negative relations and no truce. If it's just the Ottos and Mamluks there's no danger as long as no minors join in. Chaining wars to constantly keep weaklings in truces (or annexed) will work to delay a coalition. There's a risk though that such an approach instead fails absolutely spectacularly if you can't keep it up at some point.

Yup, I have decided to go with the constant war strategy cycling truces. I shouldn't have much or a problem as long as I avoid the ottos. So that is my sole limitation right now.

I have max relations with all the Sunnis in Persia and Central Asia there but there is only so much you can do when you get so much damn AE per province. I am also constantly gobbling up 4 vassals to maximize my rate of blobbing lol.

 

[CountKino]

Thanks for the replies guys!

@Karst What exactly will absolutism give? I haven't played in two years so am a bit rusty. Does it lower AE? I thought it just reduces coring cost which is not the hurdle to expansion right now.

@holyvigil Hmmm, I forgot about Deus Vult. That one gives 25% less AE right?

BTW, I am not in any coalition trouble as of right now. I have pissed off the locals beyond repair, but they are too small to matter. I can just beat them into submission.

The problem is that taking a single province in the Gangetic plain is giving me ~50 AE! Even with Deus Vult, it will still be slow going. So just taking 2-3 such provinces even with claims is enough AE to reach all the way to Ottos, Mamluks apparently.

To answer both of those questions. Absolutism gives up to 40% Admin Efficiency (you can get another 30% from tech). This reduces coring cost, diplo-annex cost, overextension and aggressive expansion by those amounts. So with one tech and max absolutism, you can get everything half price (including the AE). Yes, Deus Vult is 75% of the AE, which stacks with the admin efficiency

 

[holyvigil]

Thanks for the replies guys!

@Karst What exactly will absolutism give? I haven't played in two years so am a bit rusty. Does it lower AE? I thought it just reduces coring cost which is not the hurdle to expansion right now.

@holyvigil Hmmm, I forgot about Deus Vult. That one gives 25% less AE right?

BTW, I am not in any coalition trouble as of right now. I have pissed off the locals beyond repair, but they are too small to matter. I can just beat them into submission.

The problem is that taking a single province in the Gangetic plain is giving me ~50 AE! Even with Deus Vult, it will still be slow going. So just taking 2-3 such provinces even with claims is enough AE to reach all the way to Ottos, Mamluks apparently.

AE calculation has not changed in over half a decade. The amount of provinces has increased though. If you had chosen Delhi or Mughals AE would be much less of an issue. Sunnis take more AE if you take sunni land. Sunnis take more AE if you take from Sunni countries.

If AE never reaches 50 it can be ignored unless you wanted alliances.

 

[Quantum_AI]

@CountKino Nice. I guess I never really play long enough to fully exploit Absolutism.

Anyway, here is an updated screenshot. I just decided to to go Total Krieg! I am the world's #1 power so why not act like it? Currently in a truce with everyone and cycling it.

BTW, those 5 minors in India are my Vassals and I am trying to gobble them up so that I can release more from the enemy and repeat.

 

[lolada]

I recently complained a bit about it ^^. AE spread on distance is annoying.. it did change some time ago not sure exactly when.. here's the thread about AE with some interesting facts, mostly on page 2.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/ae-distance-propagation-issue.1295104/

Main thing is that there are only 4 "hops" for AE.. and last one is on 400 distance. So for example from your position in India its probably 400+ distance to Ottomans (the province you take count as starting point for distance).. might be closer but you get atleast 24% of any AE you cause.. There are other modifiers, religion matters a lot... but when you hit Sunni you'll piss of every sunni in the world you see. You can get Tunis in coalition same as Ottos, hopefully you dont see them yet. Its ugly system i hope @Groogy do something about it this patch.

I had one campaign with Manchu few months ago where i had Marocco in coaltion because i conquered Pasai and Mallaca. Basically, if you can choose - don't explore if you plan to conquer a ton of land.

 

[enKage]

1) Convert to buddhism
2) Tributaries cannot join coalition, while you still can attack them as cobelligerent

Not a good idea if no tolerance in NI or you want a speed run

 

[Kergan]

Florry made a good 2-part video on AE management a while back. It's still current.

 

[Quantum_AI]

I had one campaign with Manchu few months ago where i had Marocco in coaltion because i conquered Pasai and Mallaca. Basically, if you can choose - don't explore if you plan to conquer a ton of land.

Lol, yea. I have 40+ AE with Morocco which is 10,000 kms away. And Pasai and Malacca have enough AE to join the coalition (but I have them at positive relations). It's a bit ridiculous considering the distances involved and the absolute impossibility of projecting power so far away for punitive expeditions.

Its a good thing I am now so ridiculously OP that I have stopped caring about these tiny triggered countries.

 

[LSF]

Hey, be brave. Let the coalition form and fight them back. This is the best part of the game, big wars are really fun and the only realistic possible scenario in which the AI can beat you.

Some days ago I did the same as you, went straight to the provinces to form Bharat. But I was a little quicker and had to fight a series of coalitions wars, six or seven in a row, even lost some of them.

In the attachment I'm fighting two coalitions wars simultaneously. Some countries joined the coalition after the first war began and declared as well. There were more members in the coalition who were not in the wars, because joined after the second war began.

 

[Meshed Gear]

Bit late but using reconquest instead of conquest gives drastically less AE. If a country has been fully annexed by its neighbours you just need one province and then you can release a vassal that will let you conquer the rest of its cores for a pittance.

 

[KaiserJohan]

Also make alliances with the big tags even if you won't fight with them since that reduces the AE they recieve

 

[Vollwertkost]

Also make alliances with the big tags even if you won't fight with them since that reduces the AE they recieve

Came here to say this. Always stay on your diplo limit with alliances - the bigger the better. Bonuspoints if they would otherwise gather AE with you. Two birds with one stone! Don't be afraid to dissolve an alliance eventually - they will have served their purpose. Good luck!

 

[Quantum_AI]

Thanks @KaiserJohan and @Vollwertkost

The thing is I am already at my diplo relations cap as I am also releasing countries from the enemies and then slowly diplo-annexing them. Another trick I am using is to cut their empires into two halves so that they don't have access to the second half. Then it eventually leads to a rebellion and a new country appears for me to gobble.

I have probably diplo-annexed 7-8 minors this way already and currently leading 5 more vassals (above cap). The biggest one took me 35 years! :O

I can be a bit cheesy and just declare war on all these freshly released Hindu Kingdoms since no one will get AE for them. But that seems a bit cheesy. I think this mechanic needs to be looked at. Attacking a Heathen religion is dangerous but attacking your own has little consequences?

Some more screenshots below. I think I have found my optimum pace. I am truce cycling local Indian Sultanates so that they never get to join the massive worldwide Sunni Coalition. That way I can declare separate wars on them and take as many provinces as over-extension allows. Sometimes I just keep them occupied until over extension frees up lol.

As for the Sunni coalition, you can see I am beating them handily. They are coming at from the furthest reaches of the planet. The only limitation I have put is not to let the Ottos join. I can just ally them like you guys suggested, but where's the fun in that ;p