"Mana" and Capacities Discussion Thread

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Word_Smith

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Preface
With the release of yesterday's developer diary, I've noticed many people discussing the term "mana" in the context of Paradox titles. Some are confused about the term, while others are debating about its definition in other threads. I wanted to create this thread to foster some focused discussion on the matter.

What is the Definition of Mana?
For those unfamiliar with the RPG genre: mana points, or MP, is a common system for restricting the amount of magical power a player can use. You regenerate it over time (up to a cap), and cast "spells" with it. It doesn't matter what spell you're casting: a fireball, a healing spell, or an attack buff all use the player's mana. When you run out of mana, you can't cast any spells until it recovers. Throughout my time lurking in Paradox game communities, I've seen different definitions of mana as it applies to grand strategy. At first it appeared like a nebulous, confusing, and snarky term. But as time went on, I began to see persistent markers of features often described as mana, and began to understand its use.

Common Examples of Mana

Before I continue, I would first like to list the most commonly agreed upon examples of mana in Paradox titles. The most obvious is EU4's monarch point system. For those unaware, the EU4 player has three pools of monarch points: Admin power, diplo power, and military power. Admin power is used for researching production technology, integrating provinces, and improving stability. Diplo power is used to research naval and trade technology, convert province cultures, and maintain diplomatic relations. Military power is used to research army technology, recruit generals, and repress rebels. You would gain power points each month, up to a maximum cap, depending on the strength of your ruler and their advisors. Wealthier nations can hire better advisors to slightly increase their power generation, but for the most part, it did not scale depending on the strength of the player's country.

Another agreed-upon example mana is found in Imperator: Rome upon release. IR had four power pools: Civic power, Military power, Religious power, and Oratory power. To keep it brief, it was similar to EU4 in many ways. You can read about it here.

HOI4 fans also cite political power and, to a lesser extent, army experience as examples of mana. I'm not too familiar with the game, but it seems to be the consensus from what I've read.

Whether other Paradox games include examples of mana is more hotly debated. For that reason, I won't discuss them here. I'm sticking to what is universally agreed upon.

The First Feature of Mana: Illogical "Spell-Casting"
Mana, mechanically speaking, is a single power pool which must be drawn from in order to use various, seemingly unrelated abilities. There is no logical reason why upgrading the fleet's sailing ability should use the same talents and resources as forcibly assimilating the Swedish, yet the player must draw from the same power pool for both these activities. There is no logical reason why integrating a recently conquered province should interfere with the country adopting the Rotherham Plough, yet they draw from the same pool. There is no logical reason why recruiting a new general should make an empire unable to suppress a rebellion, yet it does.

Power pooling is also a sore spot for some. Monarch power can be collected and spent at the player's whim. In EU4, a great king who doesn't spend any monarch points will leave heaps of monarch points to his incompetent buffoon of an heir, allowing the heir to accomplish much more than the great king ever did. While this is a necessary evil in order for monarch points to work, it detaches the mechanics from the world, weakening the simulation aspect of the game in favour of 4X (or even RPG)-style gameplay.

The Second Feature of Mana: Overabstraction and Oversimplification
Speaking from a design perspective, Mana, at its core, abstracts complex systems into a simple points-based system. Every game requires some degree of abstraction in order to be more than a spreadsheet of numbers and complex math equations. Mana systems simplify complex systems to an extreme degree. Take EU4 as an example: Technological progress is no longer achieved from carefully budgeting revenue over an extended period of time as in EU3, but instead by not conquering and waiting for enough points.

Recall the integration of provinces in Victoria 2. If Italy were to integrate a colony in Ethiopia, it would need to encourage immigration of Italians into Ethiopia, encourage them to become bureaucrats, and try to increase the number of bureaucrats such that the admin efficiency of the province increases. If integrating provinces were to be changed to an EU4-style mana-based system, it would fail to simulate all of the subtle changes on the population level required for integration to happen.

People are most up in arms about mana mechanics when an existing dynamic and complex system is replaced with an overabstracted, oversimplified mana system. Civilization is a fine series of games, but it's not what most people come to Paradox titles for. Simulating complexity and granularity is a good thing, and mana is often seen as a detriment to that.

Are Capacities Mana?
The answer is:
maybe
We just don't know enough to make a conclusion about the matter. Nevertheless, I believe that there is cause for concern. Even if the "spell-casting" aspect is avoided, the secondary problem of overabstraction remains. Whether or not it is too abstract remains to be seen. If bureaucracy, influence, and authority end up resembling Stellaris' admin capacity and influence mechanics, capacities will still possess all of the problems associated with the second feature of mana, even if it avoids the first.

Remember: One of the reasons fans wanted Vicky 3 to have Victoria 2-style pops instead of Stellaris or Imperator-style pops is because of the importance of simulation to the Vicky experience. Reducing complex interlacing systems of population interaction (militancy, political awareness, and government factionalism) to simply "I have enough authority tokens" or "I have enough bureaucracy tokens" is a worrying move because it's a step in the direction of simplification. EU4's governing capacity and Stellaris' empire sprawl/admin capacity should not be the model for Victoria 3.

Is Mana Bad?
That's up for you to decide. I personally believe that mana removes the most desirable aspects from Paradox Grand Strategy titles and replaces them with overly simple, rather boring alternatives. When EU4 simplified the complex population/tax calculations from EU3, I was optimistic. But as EU4 changed over time with the addition of developing provinces and a vast array of DLC features, you can see how the monarch point system has become a crutch to the point where EU4 has become a map-painting game with little value as an actual world simulator.

Mana makes the game about point-management. You're not bribing rebels or sending in troops to crack down on secessionists- you're spending points. You're not reforming your religion, you're spending points. You're not implementing a settlement policy to assimilate the local culture, you're spending points. Complex problems are reduced to waiting for enough points to take action. I know from my experience with Imperator: Rome that the removal of mana greatly improved the quality of the game.

Victoria 2, at its core, is a simulator. The economy is a closed system where money changes hand from pop to government to pop. Prices are tied to the world market, not arbitrary values. When you buy something, the money doesn't disappear from existence, but gets circulated back into the world economy. Pops don't have an arbitrary revolt risk, but rather get more politically active and militant depending on their personal values and living situation. Victoria 2 is a masterpiece because of its complexity, not in spite of it.

Questions I Want to Leave You With
Is simulation a core aspect of the grand strategy genre? How much abstraction is too much abstraction?
Will the capacities make Vicky 3 more complex or less complex than its predecessor? Should Victoria 3 be simpler than Victoria 2? Why or why not?
Is mana fundamentally at odds with the simulation aspect of the Victoria series?

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
 
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Lord Canterbury

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Oh no.

Discussing Capacities in terms of "mana" is the worst thing anyone can do. Despite your definitions above, no-one agrees on the term and it just serves to de-rails otherwise meaningful discussions on mechanics.

For Capacities, just discuss the mechanics. But whatever you do... don't use the word mana in any explanation. It doesn't help. It just confuses things.
 
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While I like your definition of what mana is: I would say the defining characteristics of mana are above anything else are that it is a; bankable, b; can be used instantly for instant results and c; accrues over time rather than by in game actions.

That is my personal definition developed over many years, but I think it hits the essential points.
 
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Oh no.

Discussing Capacities in terms of "mana" is the worst thing anyone can do. Despite your definitions above, no-one agrees on the term and it just serves to de-rails otherwise meaningful discussions on mechanics.

For Capacities, just discuss the mechanics. But whatever you do... don't use the word mana in any explanation. It doesn't help. It just confuses things.

I don't know, I think if we could come to some sort of consensus on what it actually is(other than "mechanic I don't like") it might help. If it is the parenthetical definition then you are correct.
 
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Will the capacities make Vicky 3 more complex or less complex than its predecessor?​
I think we already have enough information to answer this: compared to the equivalent systems in Vicky 2, Capacities are more complex.

Admin efficiency in V2 was a matter of getting your bureaucrat population up to 1%. That was it. It didn’t matter the pop makeup of the state, what social programs you had going, or really anything else. The money you paid to individual bureaucrats would increase when you instituted new programs (which didn’t really make a whole lot of sense), but the percent of bureaucrats you need stayed the same.

Bureaucratic Capacity in V3 is more complicated. If you’re China, with a huge number of pops and a very complex bureaucratic apparatus, you need to promote more pops than a small country with a barebones state. The one thing you could argue is more simplistic is that the Capacity is aggregated on the national level instead of the state level, but that A) seems pretty reasonable for national programs and institutions and B) might not reflect all of what bureaucrat pops do for you. They may generate another resource like Services separate from adding to your Bureaucratic Capacity.

Diplo Points in V2 fit all the definitions of mana as you lay them out. They were a currency that built up, were abstract, and besides ranking up you had no way to increase the cap or charge rate.

Influence Capacity in V3 is not a currency, since it doesn’t charge over time. The devs have seemed to indicate that there are other sources for higher Influence Capacity beyond just ranking up, but it’s not clear how that works yet, beyond the examples provided in the screenshot in Dev Diary 2 (leader traits and Interest Group interactions). Still seems like a straight upgrade, regardless.

Authority is the trickiest to pin down. It seems like the Decree system might be similar in some aspects to National Focuses, but we don’t know enough yet to say. Consumption taxes drain Authority, and consumption taxes a level of complexity absent from V2. Having excess Authority capacity speeds up the implementation of reforms, which, given that V2 had reforms happen instantly, is another straight upgrade.
 
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Word_Smith

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Oh no.

Discussing Capacities in terms of "mana" is the worst thing anyone can do. Despite your definitions above, no-one agrees on the term and it just serves to de-rails otherwise meaningful discussions on mechanics.

For Capacities, just discuss the mechanics. But whatever you do... don't use the word mana in any explanation. It doesn't help. It just confuses things.
I disagree. It would be very easy to dismiss the term as an empty buzzword used by "haters" and "whiners". I, at one point, did so every time it was presented to me.

But the term has caught on for a reason. It would be arrogant to assume that "mana" is not descriptive of real game design problems that Paradox has been leaning into over their past several releases. I believe that instead of outright dismissing people and ideas, we should discuss them and try to glean understanding from them.

With that said, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the game design issues that I elaborated upon.
 
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Mana is a discussion that has started to get on my nerves as of late. While I can agree on that the monarch points in EU4 were mana and have their short comings as a mechanic, after all when Imperator changed from Mana, it improved by a country mile. Political power in HOI4 is suppose is a more limited form of mana, it acts like mana but is only used for certain things that at least have some logic.

But I think Mana as a term is very poorly defined and even when people go the mile to put meaning to it, it still is a bit flexible. For example:
b; can be used instantly for instant results
Well, not all the time, like culture conversions, coring and HOI4 dissions can take time, quite a bit even. Yet it does not make the points spent any less Mana.

But for those that just called whatever Mana, it seems to just be "A number value that can be used and I don't like it"
Which of course makes everything Mana in a sense if you will it to be. Money can be called Mana and I think we can all say that is not the case. Any resourse that you bank in storage is also Mana. Course at least it does tend to apply to the more abstract things like our capacities or influence or prestige or legitimacy ect ect.

Still, rather than talking about what these numbers really mean, it's more "This seems like mana and I don't like Mana. Mana bad" So really, no one gets anywhere.
 
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Capacities are no more mana than demesne size is mana in CK, or admin capacity in Stellaris. They're things you directly have control over, unlike monarch points.
I wouldn't even say army experience in HOI4 is mana, as it is very clear where it comes from, ie, military advisors and actual combat experience, both things the player has control over, and isn't generated out of thin air.
 
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I disagree. It would be very easy to dismiss the term as an empty buzzword used by "haters" and "whiners". I, at one point, did so every time it was presented to me.

But the term has caught on for a reason. It would be arrogant to assume that "mana" is not descriptive of real game design problems that Paradox has been leaning into over their past several releases. I believe that instead of outright dismissing people and ideas, we should discuss them and try to glean understanding from them.

With that said, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the game design issues that I elaborated upon.
Yes it is a buzzword (snarlword is my favourite term). And yes, it has caught on for a reason.

It has caught on because it is simple and meaningless and people can throw it around without actually really talking about anything properly. It is like every political slogan ever: It is catchy and short and means totally different things to different people. Its like Obama's "Yes we can" or Trump's "Make America Great Again" - everyone uses them, and their very presence stops meaningful policy discussion.

If you are able to reiterate your game design concerns without confusing them with discussion of mana, then I'll happily provide thoughts. I understand that they relate to immediate spend and abstraction... but as the description keeps referring back to "mana" its very hard to actually parse what you think are good or bad implementations of these mechanics.
 
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I think we already have enough information to answer this: compared to the equivalent systems in Vicky 2, Capacities are more complex.

Admin efficiency in V2 was a matter of getting your bureaucrat population up to 1%. That was it. It didn’t matter the pop makeup of the state, what social programs you had going, or really anything else.
That isn't correct. If you believe that, I would challenge you to play a Vicky 2 game as the Qing dynasty and attempt to increase the admin efficiency in a non-Manchu non-Beifaren province. Literacy, population culture, and population wealth all played a role.

The money you paid to individual bureaucrats would increase when you instituted new programs (which didn’t really make a whole lot of sense), but the percent of bureaucrats you need stayed the same.

Bureaucratic Capacity in V3 is more complicated. If you’re China, with a huge number of pops and a very complex bureaucratic apparatus, you need to promote more pops than a small country with a barebones state.
A fair point, but it doesn't really have anything to do with capacities. All of these criticism could be addressed by increasing the required bureaucrat ratio or increasing the requirements to maintain a high admin efficiency.

The one thing you could argue is more simplistic is that the Capacity is aggregated on the national level instead of the state level, but that A) seems pretty reasonable for national programs and institutions and B) might not reflect all of what bureaucrat pops do for you. They may generate another resource like Services separate from adding to your Bureaucratic Capacity.
These are my primary concerns as well. While I hope you are correct in that the developers will regionalize bureaucrats and admin efficiency to some degree, we don't have any information indicating that this is the case.

Diplo Points in V2 fit all the definitions of mana as you lay them out. They were a currency that built up, were abstract, and besides ranking up you had no way to increase the cap or charge rate.
I agree with you. Diplomacy was one of the weaker aspects of Victoria 2's design. Thankfully the sphere system was present to increase the complexity for diplomacy at the great power level.

Influence Capacity in V3 is not a currency, since it doesn’t charge over time. The devs have seemed to indicate that there are other sources for higher Influence Capacity beyond just ranking up, but it’s not clear how that works yet, beyond the examples provided in the screenshot in Dev Diary 2 (leader traits and Interest Group interactions). Still seems like a straight upgrade, regardless.
I would agree with you, but only because the diplo points system in Victoria 2 was fairly lacking. The influence capacity system is a very simple and intuitive upgrade- but I personally was hoping to see a more complex system that took into account more than your country rank.

Authority is the trickiest to pin down. It seems like the Decree system might be similar in some aspects to National Focuses, but we don’t know enough yet to say. Consumption taxes drain Authority, and consumption taxes a level of complexity absent from V2. Having excess Authority capacity speeds up the implementation of reforms, which, given that V2 had reforms happen instantly, is another straight upgrade.
Again, the instantaneous implementation of reforms was not ideal in Vicky 2, but has nothing to do with capacities. The old reform system could easily have included a gradual implementation of newly enacted reforms/taxes. Still, I cannot fault you for not being able to make a compelling case for Authority as a mechanic given the lack of information we have. The extent of the system's breadth and depth remains to be seen.
 
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Word_Smith

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But for those that just called whatever Mana, it seems to just be "A number value that can be used and I don't like it"
Which of course makes everything Mana in a sense if you will it to be. Money can be called Mana and I think we can all say that is not the case. Any resourse that you bank in storage is also Mana. Course at least it does tend to apply to the more abstract things like our capacities or influence or prestige or legitimacy ect ect.

Still, rather than talking about what these numbers really mean, it's more "This seems like mana and I don't like Mana. Mana bad" So really, no one gets anywhere.
I agree with you whole-heartedly. My goal with this thread was to cut through the noise and actually get to the root of cause of why people have a problem with mana, and then determine whether those root causes are also behind the capacities mechanic. I believe that while capacities are better than straight up mana, they still share some of the same problems: mainly oversimplification and overabstraction.
 
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Word_Smith

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Yes it is a buzzword (snarlword is my favourite term). And yes, it has caught on for a reason.

It has caught on because it is simple and meaningless and people can throw it around without actually really talking about anything properly. It is like every political slogan ever: It is catchy and short and means totally different things to different people. Its like Obama's "Yes we can" or Trump's "Make America Great Again" - everyone uses them, and their very presence stops meaningful policy discussion.

If you are able to reiterate your game design concerns without confusing them with discussion of mana, then I'll happily provide thoughts. I understand that they relate to immediate spend and abstraction... but as the description keeps referring back to "mana" its very hard to actually parse what you think are good or bad implementations of these mechanics.
I understand you dislike the term, so allow me to phrase my argument without using it.

At its core, my position is that the capacities system appears to simplify existing mechanics and abstract them to the detriment of the simulation. Victoria 2 is a masterpiece largely in part because of the complexity of its world-simulation, and to decrease that complexity in favour of "bureaucracy tokens" which you can allocate at will serves to simplify what shouldn't be simplified.
 
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I would say with so many people trying to explain what they mean by "mana", recently, the argument that it means nothing and should be shrugged off as a random word thrown around has a lot less weight. Sure, a lot of people don't explain what they mean and some might have developped an aversion of any numbered accumulating value, but others put a lot of thought and care in ascribing that term.
 
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I understand that they relate to immediate spend and abstraction... but as the description keeps referring back to "mana" its very hard to actually parse what you think are good or bad implementations of these mechanics.

Prestige and piety from CK2 are a an example of what you are talking about done well. Why? Because you earn them by demonstrating your prestige and piety.

Of the three concepts I mentioned earlier, lack of agency in acquisition is the most egregious.
 
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The reason I’m afraid for them is that they come from sources that doesn’t make very much sense. If I recall from the dev diary freedom of the press can be used to give you road maintenance, seems rather odd. Also I don’t like the limiting factor it puts on nations with more provinces. Because the bonuses from laws don’t scale with size at all it means small nations will be able to spend their points from having freedom of the press for many more road maintanances compared to a larger nation such as Prussia or France. Sure in Vicky2 you had national focuses, but those increased with tech and weren’t as direct as “road maintenance”
 
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freedom of the press can be used to give you road maintenance, seems rather odd.
Essentially less press freedom means less questioning and opposition to the guy in power, thus more authority. That authority is then used for the guy in power to decree certain things *must* be done or prioritised, like the national focus in Victoria 2. So it's wrong that freedom of press gives road maintenance, the lack of it contributes to the government having greater authority. Road maintenance is also paid for by money, as the devs have said in the comments on some threads, the authority is only a specific decree, not how roads are normally maintained.
 
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Essentially less press freedom means less questioning and opposition to the guy in power, thus more authority. That authority is then used for the guy in power to decree certain things *must* be done or prioritised, like the national focus in Victoria 2. So it's wrong that freedom of press gives road maintenance, the lack of it contributes to the government having greater authority. Road maintenance is also paid for by money, as the devs have said in the comments on some threads, the authority is only a specific decree, not how roads are normally maintained.
I get that. Still it seems rather odd on how wide the decrees are. Mostly I’m just sceptical that the points are given based on a fixed value for each law and not something that scales somewhat with size (such as national focuses did in Vicky2). This will make every small nation have much more well maintained roads compared to large nations :) . Even if that historically wouldn’t be the case
 
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So far, I don't see any problem with Victoria 3s capacities, aside from maybe authority.

Each state and million of pops has a cost to govern, and you have to build facilities and employ people to do so - perfectly sound design, in fact one I always thought EU series lacked.

Diplomatic capacity is sort of ok. We still had those limitations one way or another, be it diplomatic relations slots, or some diplomatic influence, you had to invest.

Authority - strictly depends on how you spend it, and how it is gained Since it is most related to your government, it will be interesting to see how those points change, with size.

Problem of EU4 "mana" was it's use almost everywhere, and gain being only very partially controlled by player.
 
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The reason I’m afraid for them is that they come from sources that doesn’t make very much sense. If I recall from the dev diary freedom of the press can be used to give you road maintenance, seems rather odd. Also I don’t like the limiting factor it puts on nations with more provinces. Because the bonuses from laws don’t scale with size at all it means small nations will be able to spend their points from having freedom of the press for many more road maintanances compared to a larger nation such as Prussia or France. Sure in Vicky2 you had national focuses, but those increased with tech and weren’t as direct as “road maintenance”
Freedom of the Press does not give you Road Maintenance. Having restrictive political freedoms gives you a higher Authority Capacity, not a lower one. There was some confusion because of the way this was displayed in one of the tooltips in the most recent Dev Diary, but the Devs clarified what’s going on under the hood. You get smaller and smaller bonuses to authority capacity the further along you go along the political reform path. Freedom of the Press is probably one of the highest levels and thus probably gives you no boost to Authority.

It appears that you can enforce state decrees EU4 style that drain your Authority Capacity. The Road Maintenance Decree referenced in the diary takes the form of corvee labor, ie forcing peasants to spend time working on the roads for free. This is an alternative to doing things in a more liberal way (actually paying POPs).

You’re correct in saying that using decrees doesn’t scale well when you have many different states vs having just a few, but I would say that makes perfect sense. Bigger countries should have to either go really hard on authoritarianism (Tsarist Russia) or develop more modern institutions that don’t derive from the will of the sovereign.
 
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