Man, 'merica is 1951 is one tough nut to crack!

[Commander666]

in the tech screen there is the tech "International Ballistic Missile",

It actually reads Intercontinental Ballistic Missile. The acronym is ICBM.

But I liberated France, and it [BREST] is owned by France.

While I have suggested liberating Flanders and Wallonia as possible puppets to help with manning the Atlantic Wall, I never suggested France. Losing Brest as a place to introduce new units is only one negative. Much worse is that all your convoys now need to start from further back - like Ghent. And if UK still has the Isles, the RAF will bomb the convoy which will cause the route to run up around the Isles so hugely increasing the merchant ships needed on any convoy route.

 

[Commander666]

Why is it best for the attack to happen at 23 hours, when repair is occurring? I would have guessed that such would mean the damage is immediately repaired, and that you would want for it to hit at 24 hours or 1 hour so that the damage knocks back down any repairs that were just made.

Any damage remains until repaired (obviously). Hitting at 23:00 hours adds new damage to the already existing damage. So there is less chance to fully repair and have units enjoy higher ESE for that next day.

But - in actual application of the facts - it only means that starting attack a day earlier will result in same lower ESE earlier (of course)... and I wouldn't bother myself one bit with counting how many provinces there are to target. As your damage will exceed repair each day, it is a mute point whether ESE will be calculated on D-DAY or D-DAY +1 (other than starting attack at D-DAY -1 would amount to same thing).

Given your rockets are sitting in many different bases to not overload any base for best org gain, it becomes rather problematic to count the different flight paths each for their flight time, and adjust for 2 hour launch delay. Finally, the million dollar question would be "Should rocket begin exploding at 23:00 or should it have exploded at 23:00?" since the explosion animation takes an hour or two. And is there actually any damage until the damage report has been done?

Frankly, this critical math idea is taking rocket science into the realm of "self-initiated destruction."

 

[Pang Bingxun]

Thanks Pang! Why is it best for the attack to happen at 23 hours, when repair is occurring? I would have guessed that such would mean the damage is immediately repaired, and that you would want for it to hit at 24 hours or 1 hour so that the damage knocks back down any repairs that were just made.

If that were the case, than starting the bombing run should start at 24 hours. Please note that contrary to reality the bombing run of V2 takes several hours, just like strategic bombers do.

But the reason to make it start at 23 hours is that this means that the province is under attack from 23 hours to 24 hours, therefore repairing does not occur. So the point is not to destroy repairs, the point is to prevent it.

 

[Commander666]

Why is it best for the attack to happen at 23 hours?

SEPERATING BOMBING FACTS FROM MYTHS:

The very worst thing you can do is to deliberately conduct strategic bombing at night - which is the case if you are hitting Washington when clock reads 23:00. Just like Interdiction Mission is more effective at daytime, the results of a Strategic Bombardment done at night yields less than 1/3 the damage of same strike conducted during daytime. Importantly, the 23:00 to 24:00 hour “critical period to supposedly stop repairing” is nighttime over Washington D.C by several hours either way.

I conducted several tests to substantiate my claims. While I don't have rockets to test with, I trust that bombing by 4 wings of B-47E Stratojets (STR-V) who total 160 Strategic Bomb Value should be comparable to using ICBMs.

And because I am USA, I did my testing on an undamaged Berlin. Germany is at 623 IC so will not be short anything as regards ability to repair.

RESULTS OF STRATEGIC BOMBARDMENT MISSION:

The nighttime run against Berlin (bombing from 19:00 - 23:00 hours) got 20.46% infra destroyed. (20.46 out of 200).
The daytime run (bombing from 5:00 - 9:00 hours) got 76.99% infra destroyed. (76.99 out of 2000). That is 376% more destruction with a day time attack!

The bombers, the mission, and the day were identical. It was a Strategic Bombardment mission which is what rockets use.
Conclusion: To maximize damage, never bomb at night.

MYTH #2 “Strategic bombardment is reduced by enemy aircraft attacking the bombers.” This was most easy to test as the Luftwaffe was very determined that I should not do bombing tests over Berlin. As I myself have experienced a thousand times, aerial interception usually does not result in less bomb damage. Often I attacked enemy bombers halfway thru their bomb run… but they still got identical damage. This is most logical because bombers need to be attacked BEFORE they release bombs to make any difference to the destruction the bombs will cause.

Interestingly, some results of bombers attacked during their bombing gave slightly higher bomb damage than un-attacked bombers – not because the enemy action changed anything, I think, but only because strategic bomb results do vary slightly.

I also did have some bombers attacked who did produce significantly less damage, but they were the exception to the rule. Most bombers attacked resulted in slightly increased bomb damage. All results were obtained by reloading same file save to conduct new test.

Conclusion: If enemy bombers reach their target you will have damage. Interception is still advisable to destroy the bombers, but saving your province from suffering same damage might, or might not, happen. Statistically it is unlikely according to my results.

POSSIBLE MYTH #3 “There exists a critical hour for strategic bombing that will stop repair. As repair occurs at midnight only, bombing from 23:00 to 24:00 hours prevents repair for that day.”

It does seem true that repair actually does all occur at midnight - and not on an hourly basis which would then tallied when game updates at midnight. Doing various bomb runs on Bermuda (German controlled) supports that fact.

The early bomb run from 10:00 to 13:00 damaged province (60 infra) down to 39.8%... which repaired to 42.8% at midnight (3.0 infra repaired in 11 hours after attack ended).

The late bomb run occurred 18:00 to 21:00 (both runs are in daytime) and damaged province down to 38.6%... which repaired also 3.0 infra in just 3 hours remaining to midnight after attack ended.

However, I don’t believe one can stop repair if bombing every day when game is updating. But if that is what happens (no repair possible if being bombed at midnight) it definitely is a horrible exploit. Unfortunately, so far I have been unable to get my bombers to bomb over the midnight hour... but I am still trying to test this further... and reserve judgment if this is myth or not.

HOWEVER, trying to use rockets to get the utopian destruction by timing the release of rockets so they hit 23:00 to 24:00 hours should prove to be an extreme frustration, if not outright too difficult. Firstly one will get less than the daytime destruction.

Secondly, one needs to send a test rocket to first establish the flight duration from that particular base to Washington, and do same for every other base holding rockets while recording that info for later use. Next one needs to calculate in the launch delay, and - finally - calculate when to release rocket to hit Washington at 23:00 hours.

Given we are discussing rockets fired daily from various locations; it should prove very interesting to manage all the different times correctly while still conducting a real war elsewhere. Maybe we could produce next patch with a feature that game will pause automatically at a pre-set time programed in by player… and a message pops up announcing “Time now to fire rocket!”

 

[Commander666]

Well, "Possible Myth #3" is actually true. Bombing target every day from 23:00 to 24:00 results in repairs never occurring. However, the strategy is so counter-productive it should be "busted!"

Firstly, it takes forever to reach 1% remaining infra (because nighttime bombing is so ineffective).

Secondly, the nightmare of trying to manage it so that all attacks occur then (and no day is skipped) is rather complex. I was able to achieve it using STR using "Bomb day and night" setting and then daily micro-managing them to not bomb during day so they will be on base to start on time the needed night flight.

Thirdly, it is rather counter-productive since normal strategic bombing gets province to 1% remaining infra much quicker. While this occurs with just one hit from a stack of STR doing Logistical Mission, I realize rockets can only do the generalist Strategic Mission (which is far less destructive to infrastructure) and so will need several days so that 1% remaining infra is reached. However, given repair is limited, it should be possible to get province to 1% every day at end of that day's attack.

Of course the argument is that at midnight the 1% Washington will be about a 10% repaired Washington - so still sufficing for enemy units to take on supplies.

Well, the fact is that units can always take on enough supplies (if supplies exist) even if only 1% infra exists.

ONLY IF IN COMBAT do they suffer a negative modifier directly related to infra destruction. But units in a scenario with capital permanently at 1% infra will not starve. To get that to happen it requires the total factories to be destroyed to less than is necessary to produce the minimum supplies needed for that country's army, or lack of resources to produce supplies, or some way that all supplies are blocked. 1% is NOT a block - only a very poor situation for taking on supplies. Besides, a simple mistake so target not bombed just before midnight any one day gets it back to "survival infra levels".

Certainly a permanent 1% infra capital will be very damaging to enemy (especially as regards their ORG)... but it really is only a theory that will never be realized because it would require every province around Washington to also have only 1% infra (and every province in a third ring around that same) to stop any "pumping effect" of higher infra provinces on their lower infra neighbors.

Do you really think you can keep Washington and its 12 nearest surrounding provinces all at 1% infra day after day using rockets all with varying flight times (different bases, different targets) and never miss a single 23:00 hour explosion?

I would recommend instead using rockets to lower Washington infra normally as is easily accomplished by firing them so they hit at daytime (and not needing to include a specific critical hour). Then - combined with an attack - noticeable advantages will be realized. But to undertake the venture as a way of destroying USA's army without attacking is simply a fallacy.

Then it would be much better to organize a massive timed rocket attack to possibly cause the USA to go into rebellion. I have had this happen using 50 rockets and 2 nukes. But if no nukes, perhaps 150 rockets delivered all same day hitting nearly every province might do same thing?

 

[Saltynuts]

Thanks guys! Commander, I might have to try your massed rocket attacks without nukes, because I am not seeming to get "The Event"! I have Basic Nuclear Power researched in industrial (working on improved), and have a level 4 reactor in Berlin. It is the most it will let me build there at least currently. Is it just a matter of time before it pops so I can start researching dirty bomb and what not? Or anything else I should be doing?

BTW, I am building more nuclear reactors in other provinces. Is this a waste?

More to come! Thanks!

 

[Pang Bingxun]

BTW, I am building more nuclear reactors in other provinces. Is this a waste?

It is. You can only have 1 nuclear testsite, for rocket testsites it is the same. You can of course build nuclear power plants, but those are not very cost efficient, so usually it is best not to build them.

 

[Saltynuts]

Also Commander666, I've beeng bombing Washington, not paying that much attention to the times when the rockets hit as it does seem a bit of trial and error, and the process is multiplied because I'm launching from several sights. But generally I make sure 1 rocket is slamming into DC a day. Infra rarely gets above 20 (of of 200), if at all. I think you are saying this might be insufficient to cause the US army to starve. That's OK with me, so long as it will give me a pretty darned good advantage when I attack them because their supplies will be low and mine relatively higher (and I'm building the 200% infra line to Rostock or whatever that port is on 3x speed) to try and maximize mine. Will that likely do the trick? I don't mine crushing the U.S. forces by force.

 

[Commander666]

I have Basic Nuclear Power researched in industrial and have a level 4 reactor in Berlin. It is the most it will let me build there at least currently.

I think you are confused. Basic Nuclear Power (1951) lets you build to a Level 8 reactor.

I am sure you are right about having a Level 4 reactor - which means you have only researched to Nuclear Reactor (1943) which lets you build to Level 4. It is the next tech - Nuclear Power (1944) that allows reactor size of Level 5 and opens up the possibility of Event for Secret Weapons: "May lead to Nuclear Waste Bomb".

BTW, I am building more nuclear reactors in other provinces. Is this a waste?

Absolutely! You should build "thru province" so you can't accidentally (or intentionally) be wrongly placing a newly constructed reactor level.

Is it just a matter of time before it pops so I can start researching dirty bomb and what not? Or anything else I should be doing?

Yes, achieve NUCLEAR POWER (1944) and build reactor to Level 5. You will probably get ability to research dirty bomb before you have 5th level built.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

Infra rarely gets above 20 (of of 200), if at all.

20% is way to high. At 20% Infra ESE can get as high as 30% allowing units to be supplied with 90% of consumption at rest. You need to keep ESE to 10%, you cannot get it lower by reducing only Infra anyway. With 1945 logitics 3.3% Infra give 9.96% ESE which is rounded up to the minimum of 10%. Keep Infra at 3.3% and ESE will be 10% for all land divisions of the USA. That means thay they daily receive 30% of the supplies they need at rest. Additionaly they get 50% x (1 - supplies/max supplies) of the supplies they need at rest. This means that the less supplies they have the more they get. By starving the strenght and the supply consumption of units decrease, but their supply ontake does not. Therefore you cannot starve them completely by only decreasing ESE to 10%, you can only decrease their strenght to slightly less than 80%. If they have logistic wizards attached they might even keep at almost of their 100% strenght.

Reducing supplies to less than 50% is somewhat easy. For decreasing supplies further in a time efficient manner you need to use the interdiction mission by Tactical bombers or CAS. The later are better, but much more vulnerable, so usually TAC is the weapon of choice. Once supplies are down to zero it probably is best to not delay attacking them with your land divisions any further.

 

[Commander666]

Also Commander666, I've beeng bombing Washington, not paying that much attention to the times when the rockets hit as it does seem a bit of trial and error, and the process is multiplied because I'm launching from several sights. But generally I make sure 1 rocket is slamming into DC a day. Infra rarely gets above 20 (of of 200), if at all. I think you are saying this might be insufficient to cause the US army to starve. That's OK with me, so long as it will give me a pretty darned good advantage when I attack them because their supplies will be low and mine relatively higher (and I'm building the 200% infra line to Rostock or whatever that port is on 3x speed) to try and maximize mine. Will that likely do the trick? I don't mine crushing the U.S. forces by force.

It sounds like you reloaded because last I heard you were in Canada, had annexed it, and claimed you had a 200 infra line from Berlin to Rostock. Maybe you discovered the infra line to Rostock did not exist? You want 200 infra going Berlin-Potsdam-Rostock. That will give you best possible ESE at overseas coasts. It is extremely advantageous to stay near the coast, as the benefit of a high ESE outlet gets diminished once you get inland at overseas place.

There is no point rocketing Washington until you are about to do battle. Definitely you will never starve anybody when they have 20 remaining infra. And the ESE is being boosted much higher by neighboring Baltimore's 200 infra, and if that is destroyed, then somewhat higher by more distant Clarksburg, Harrisburg and Philadelphia (all with 200 infra).

You can not starve anybody until you destroy their means to produce supply (insufficient IC, no resources, or no convoys if unit overseas). You can only lessen supply uptake so units suffer "lack of supply during combat"; and mobile units will suffer just from movement so that they may stop moving. But anybody stationary and not fighting will survive very well.

The rockets are good, but use them in conjunction with an attack. And rocket the target and its surrounding provinces. Also rocketing the capital and surrounding provinces is good.

The evidence for your success with this is in the Battle Display. Open the battle and look for "Lack of supply" negative modifier on the enemy units. If not there after a day of battle, your rocket attack is useless. Also, if not increasing hourly, the rocket attack not working. Maybe start the rocket attack the day before battle starts?

EDIT: Contrary to other beliefs you might find in Forum, the "weapon of choice" for using reduced infrastructure as a battle strategy is the STRATEGIC BOMBER and most definitely not CAS or TAC.

ONE HIT FROM A FAIRLY MODERN STACK (4 wings) of STR using Logistical Strike Mission takes 200 infra > 1 infra only - even in mountainous terrain. Use a "Carpet Bomber" leader.

But you can't keep bombers flying in USA unless you have taken down the USAAF first. Hence rockets are a safer alternative to assist battles.

HOWEVER, if we are discussing having Luftwaffe based in Canada then I would forget about infra destruction and just use FTR, CAS and TACs directly in the battle on Interdiction of the enemy stack. That will, by far, give the greatest contribution to winning battles.

Good luck (earnestly) trying to achieve ability to bomb in USA given the very fierce ability of the USAAF to defeat you. Generally this strategy requires a long build up - like taking Cuba and constructing four level 10 airbases there and another on Andros all jammed with FTR, (and more Level 10 airbases in Jamaica and Curacao for holding bombers) just to wear down the USAAF first.

FINALLY, I personally would NEVER do any conquest unless my air force can assist. I hate "trench warfare" and only with a good air force having all the right tools can I conduct a successful blitzkrieg. That means dozens and dozens of new air bases, CAS flown in using NAV to take org hit so CAS all arrive 100% orged, same for TACs, a few stacks of STR to shape the battlefield, lots and lots (and lots more) FTR, and NAVs to insure my amphibs aren't turned back. All the useless rocket intercepters you can leave in Europe unless they are INT-8 (the longer range version) in which case they can be used effectively from 2 of Cuba's 4 air bases to project additional power over the Miami air space. Andros should have FTR on it - not because INT-8 there can't reach Miami - but because your supply convoy will be bombed regularly up at New England Shelf, and it needs FTR based on Andros to deal with that annoyance.

 

[Commander666]

BTW, I am building more nuclear reactors in other provinces.

To clarify, "YES, you can have more than one nuclear test site." I have done it myself. But it is the higher level that matters, and not total levels, I believe.

 

[Saltynuts]

OK, a few more questions and follow-ups:

Commander, you are correct on the infra and the line to the sea - I checked and much to my chagrin the infra in Rostock and Potsdam was only 150% so I'm building it up in both places to 200%, triple speed.

I definitely re-booted a few times. I keep trying different things on the USA but they are so tough! Its funny how I have a huge interceptor force but it is so quickly overwhelmed and then stuck on the runways.

On nuclear power, I have basic nuclear power. Am researching improved nuclear power. I have level 1 only nuclear reactors in Berlin and Frankfurt. When I right click on either of those provinces the "setup nuclear reactor" option is not there. Is there some other way I can choose to have them built up? I'm sure I'm missing something.

 

[Saltynuts]

I said I had a level 4 reactor but that was actually power plants. The reactors are both at level 1 only.

 

[Saltynuts]

Wait a sec. I seeing I'm bulding 3 nuclear reactors in Frankfort. I take it that would bring my level up to 4? Its not letting me add any to this. Is this right? And its not letting me add any to Berlin reactor either (I'm not building any there, and its at 1). Although I guess I suppose I don't care about Berlin as it is only the highest reactor that seems to matter.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

Wait a sec. I seeing I'm bulding 3 nuclear reactors in Frankfort. I take it that would bring my level up to 4? Its not letting me add any to this. Is this right? And its not letting me add any to Berlin reactor either (I'm not building any there, and its at 1). Although I guess I suppose I don't care about Berlin as it is only the highest reactor that seems to matter.

Well, it is supposed that only one test reactor exists. By building them in more than one province you might have screwed thing up. Always only build them in one province and always only in a province, not in way that you build them not attached to a province as that might cause trouble.

Chances are that you might have to reload from a savegame where things were not messed up. As i have always been stern to avoid such a situation am not really competent on the matter. Of course a savegame edit can always rescue the situation.

 

[Commander666]

I don't think you can right click province to build nuclear test site IF YOU ARE ALREADY BUILDING TEST SITE AS A LINE IN THE PRODUCTION QUEUE. At this point I am not sure what is your best choice but you should stop construction on 2 of the 3 test sites. Do continue the test site that has the most levels already built. If that should be the line in production queue, please make sure in future that you only ever place newly finished levels in the ONE proper spot. You need maximum levels in one test site.

OK, so you do know what you are researching. Good. But a Level 1 nuclear test site will not unlock Secret Weapons. Generally that happens at Level 4. "Nuclear Power Plants" are useless distractions that have nothing to do with getting nuclear bombs. .

VITALLY IMPORTNT: If you can not increase any of the 3 locations were nuclear test sites currently exist - or the production line - check if the total levels constructed (and ones programmed to still construct) all places = 8. Eight is what you are allowed with Basic Nuclear Power. If your 3 locations = 8 then I would judge that you are limited that way... meaning you will never be able to build a Level 10 anywhere since, perhaps, you are only allowed 10 levels total. What you are allowed counts what you have already built AND what is programmed to still construct.

If so that would require game scrub back to when you first wrongly placed 2nd location for test site. Sorry, I can't remember what I did when I build reactor at two different places. But it probably wasn't good.

 

[Commander666]

Thinking more about this, try reducing Frankfurt from 3 levels constructing there to only 2 levels. If that then lets you increase Berlin by one level, then I am sure that you are already at 8 (your limit). Maybe look around for another location you built nuclear test site. If between all locations you total 8 (includes what you have programmed to still construct) then you are rather screwed.

Don't confuse this with Nuclear Power Plants. They are a separate different thing.

QUICK MATH:

Berlin has 1 level constructed.
Frankfurt has 1 level constructed and 3 more programmed to build.
In production queue do you have a separate line with 3 more programmed to construct?

If so that's 8, meaning you are indeed limited to 10 total.. and the best you can achieve would be a Level 9 test site at either Berlin or Frankfurt.

In any case, cancel the extra in-production line. You want levels still constructing only in one location. Hopefully that let's you turn up Frankfurt by equivalent amount deleted elsewhere so Frankfurt can build to 7 now (and 9 later when your techs advance).

However, a maximum nuclear test site of only 9 will take longer to produce bombs than would a level 10.

 

[Saltynuts]

Well shucks guys, I'm sure placing a reactor in more than one spot screwed me up. Dang. Off hand all I could find was 2 reactors, level one, and 3 being built, for 5 total, not 8. But maybe I have reactors in other provinces as well that I missed. Will take a look. In any event I am indeed going to restart to a save game where I've only placed a reactor in one province. Live and learn!

 

[Saltynuts]

So since I'm going to restart the game, a couple follow up questions.

I'm probably going to go with rockets as the USA just has too good an air force for me to have any confidence I could thoroughly ground it no matter how many planes I made. Do rockets use much resources or other expenses just sitting there? If not I'm going to stockpile huge numbers of them as soon as I get the ICBMs.

This will also give me a chance to build up my infra to and in Rostock. Sweet.

My navy. Given that the U.S. absolutely crushes my heavy subs, I'm probably going to stop making them and maybe delete all my existing ones (although I suppose they could attempt to go after convoys, but I don't think it will do much to U.S. as I understand they are pretty resource self-sufficient). Should I even worry about a navy? If so, since the U.S. navy definately has awesome ASW, I take it I should prefer a surface fleet. What is the best stack/strategy in this case? Maybe I should just forget about it given I will already have all the troops I need sitting there in Canada when I start the war.

So it sounds like when I start the war if I keep the DC infrastructure to 20 out of 200 max it will probably still not cause the enemy to die or even run low on supplies unless I am attacking heavily. Anything else can I do with my rockets to help? I note that the U.S. AI seems to strategically bomb my troops. Is this cutting off the underlying infra, thus helping them to run low on supplies? If so should I be strategicly bombing the front lines (including maybe behind them?) in addition to DC to further weaken the U.S. supply situation.

If I hit DC with one ICBM a day, so its infra is MAX 20 out of 200, and I attack all along the front, and keep attacking, will the U.S. likely run out of supplies soon? Thoughts?

Thanks!