Mali westernizes too fast

[Carentino]

What mod is that?

It is my own personal mod that I'm working on, still far from being able to relese it.

 

[Noctus]

Neither is easy conquest with facedesk tactics by the western group. What is your suggested alternative?

Buff those that are conquered too fast, in a way that makes them harder to conquer, instead of simply unlocking easy Westernization for everyone.

 

[Noctus]

And literally every single colonizable province being colonized by 1650 isn't immersion breaking?

This is a different issue, which should be solved seperatly.

This quick-westernisation-for-everyone "solution" doesnt solve your issue + creates different problems.

 

[tman144]

Back to the point. It seems like Mali westernizes too early because Portugal colonizes the two provinces between Mali and Morocco. I suggest PDox just gives those two provinces to Morocco. I think this would make Mali not westernize until much later.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Buff those that are conquered too fast, in a way that makes them harder to conquer, instead of simply unlocking easy Westernization for everyone.

It doesn't though, unless you put a territory next to them and wait 50-100 years. A 6+ tech lead even western vs western is still facedesk to the point where 1/3 the forces will win over the AI easily...and the AI can't "chain westernize" due to the -8 techs requirement and the fact that while westernizing, a target will stop teching entirely until completing it.

The rate at which AIs are westernizing is largely overblown; without the player going there quickly and letting them it is rare to see India have any western nations before the 1600's, and even 1600 wouldn't happen in most games. Africa/New World are more frequent, but they are so backwards and easy to roll that they need the help (even reforming natives still suck unless you declare on them right after letting them boost tech).

On the flip side, say you play Songhai or anybody but Mali in Africa. Unless your leader luck is spectacular, you will not westernize before 1550 AD, which means that you will not be relevant until the 1600's no matter what.

I would actually like a re-balancing of tech groups such that those starts aren't so slow.

Back to the point. It seems like Mali westernizes too early because Portugal colonizes the two provinces between Mali and Morocco. I suggest PDox just gives those two provinces to Morocco. I think this would make Mali not westernize until much later.

Not a good idea. Mali would get spanked by Morocco quickly, and a human could abuse Morocco to reach North Africa and westernize inside 60 years potentially...definitely not a good result compared to now . Besides, this would mess up either Castille or Portugal colonizing too.

 

[TheRevanchist]

Back to the point. It seems like Mali westernizes too early because Portugal colonizes the two provinces between Mali and Morocco. I suggest PDox just gives those two provinces to Morocco. I think this would make Mali not westernize until much later.

Even parts of Asia westernizes very fast now because Portugal and Spain gets to there in no time. I've had games where parts of the Indian subcontinent and SE Asia would be westernized by the early 1700's.

 

[Dakilla TM]

In my current Ottomans game, Mali has bordered Portugal since the 1500s, and it still hasn't westernized. It's the early 1600s now and Portugal just now has a foothold in India, and I haven't seen an Indian nation westernize. Heck, Morocco, which bordered Portugal since forever, still hasn't westernized. This whole thing is just luck. Sometimes you get games where everyone westernized, other times barely anyone.

 

[tman144]

Not a good idea. Mali would get spanked by Morocco quickly, and a human could abuse Morocco to reach North Africa and westernize inside 60 years potentially...definitely not a good result compared to now . Besides, this would mess up either Castille or Portugal colonizing too.

I'm not so sure. Wouldn't Morocco just make Mali a protectorate? Portugal and Spain both have islands off the coast, so I don't think it will screw up their colonization either.

 

[Dakilla TM]

I don't think many of us here has lost to a Westernized AI. Even if they're at the same tech, they're still behind since they lack complete idea sets that make them up to par. Mali Westernizing makes things interesting. And hey, if you don't want them to, as soon as you get that notification, disrupt it by attacking Mali!

 

[Pete0714]

Even those tribes, while clearly not as advanced as Europeans and Muslims and the others of what we usually considered "civilized" society, were a lot more advanced than people realize. For example, the interior of the Congo is often used as a byword for tribalism and savagery, but it contained at least four (loosely) organized states with central governments at the time of the Belgian conquest, each of one of which had to be defeated militarily (the best documented was the Kuba Kingdom, by Sheppard's expedition, which was an agriculturally based society with a landed aristocracy and a king and his court, who commissioned art on a regular basis).

Part of the problem is that it is really unclear what Westernization even means; ideally a system would rely less on hardcoded bonuses and more on neighbor bonuses so that exposure to more and technologically advanced countries simply leads naturally to faster tech growth. This would be difficult to balance and program though, and would require a lot of time that could be used for other things.

Agreed, its plainly ignorance (at the least, I won't state what it is otherwise) to assume incapability in most non European nations, as they all have complex histories and social structures, even the very remote tribes of Africa and the Americas. Personally, I never liked the idea of calling it westernization when I played EU3, but back then I resigned to the fact that it was game mechanics. This time around, however, Paradox had opened up alternative routes to achieve some advancement with the onset of the COP DLC, and it makes me hopeful that even African nations will get more of a chance with time as the game develops. Mali is at the very least a fully justified nation to have easily westernize. Heck, its in CK2, and I am sure Paradox would like to have the opportunity given to export a successful Mali game from CK2 to EU4 and have the player stand a chance.