Mali westernizes too fast

[Comradebot]

imo sub-Saharan African countries should never be able to westernize. Which is why I will be making a mod which disables westernization for African tech countries. Why do you think Europeans could draw up African borders with a pen and paper? The African nations were so backwards in comparison to the European powers, you can't deny it - open a history book if your deluded enough to think the Africans had a chance.

I don't know what history books you're opening, but they aren't the same ones I've seen. How many major African states were conquered by Europeans prior to 1800? Mutapa, one of the most remote of all African states in this period and with far less contact (and less technology from) withWestern powers than those around Mali and Ethiopia, survived until 1760. Even then they only collapsed on themselves and were de facto independent of Portugal until the 1900s.


I'm sorry, but your view on Africa in this period is incredibly flawed. There's a reason (a few of them actually) that, historically, African wasn't overrun by Europe until the late 1880s. Malaria aside, and even with their greater technology, Europe completely lacked the manpower to effectively invade Africa en-masse. Heck, the only reason the Americas were colonized so effectively is because 90% of the population died off in a freak holocaust. If that doesn't happen, Europe finds itself having a far more difficult time establishing a foot hold in the Americas. To say that Western powers should just stomp across everything in Africa in the EU time frame isn't remotely accurate to how history played out.


And maybe Mutapa and some of the Swahili states are "too far behind". But Mali? Really? A land that has had regular contact with North Africa and even Europe for over a millenium? The region wasn't as backwards as their placement in the Sub-Saharan group would have you believe and it wasn't populated solely by wandering tribes just now learning the art of tying a pointy rock to the end of a stick. Maybe it should be harder for a Sub-Saharan to westernize (ignoring the fact its harder for a Sub-Saharan to survive to Westernize), but maybe Mali shouldn't be quite as backwards as Sofala to begin with.

But from a gameplay standpoint... do we really need to make even easier for Western tech nations? Mali actually becoming realistically resilient to European efforts at conquest seems silly when on the opposite side of things its ridiculously easy to overrun all of Asia with a Western nation. Again, there's a reason you'll see empires in the "post my empire thread" where they've painted all of China and India but abruptly stopped around Anatolia.

 

[moyang]

As others pointed out, this game gives too much penalty to non-europeans and westernization is needed to make them playable.
If you don't like this just mod the game.

 

[Lwantssugar]

The main reason non western nations can't stand up to Europeans is because weight of numbers does absolutely nothing unless you're Russia, the main reason Britain didn't completely finish it's conquest of India until the early Victorian era was because there's millions of Indians and only a few thousand troops employed by the east India company, line infantry could be overrun if you threw enough warm bodies at them. But with casualty rates the way they are you'd think every man in a regiment is wielding an MG 42, not an inaccurate musket that a well drilled soldier that wasnt panicking could get maybe 3 shots off a minute.

 

[smellymummy]

Why are people so bothered by a little hat symbol next to their name?

As to why, for me at least, is because I'd rather make them a protectorate and use their trade power. Instead I have to deal with a Mali that is westernized, rivals and embargoes me, and to deal with it I have to go all ADM points to conquer and core an area of the world that just doesn't make sense in the timeframe of the game, that's all.

 

[BritNavFan]

And maybe Mutapa and some of the Swahili states are "too far behind". But Mali? Really? A land that has had regular contact with North Africa and even Europe for over a millenium? The region wasn't as backwards as their placement in the Sub-Saharan group would have you believe and it wasn't populated solely by wandering tribes just now learning the art of tying a pointy rock to the end of a stick. Maybe it should be harder for a Sub-Saharan to westernize (ignoring the fact its harder for a Sub-Saharan to survive to Westernize), but maybe Mali shouldn't be quite as backwards as Sofala to begin with.

Actually you have that exactly the wrong way around: Sofala was much more "advanced" than Mali. Sofala and the other Swahili city-states (but not Mutapa, which was not Swahili) were basically outposts/colonies of the Muslim civilization of Egypt/Arabia/Persia/India. They gathered the resources of the east coast of Africa and sent them to Egypt, etc. in exchange for the products of the central civilization. At any given time, in each of those Swahili cities, there would be merchants who one or two years ago had been in Persia or Cairo or Gujarat, and who had come to the outposts to see how the branches of the family businesses were doing. So, in game terms, the Swahili cities work best as Indian tech group countries, the same way that European colonies share European tech groups. (Making the Swahili Muslim tech group would give them maps of Europe, and they had nothing to do with Europe until the Portuguese showed up.)

Mali, on the other hand, peaked around 1350 and was very much in decline by 1450, with Songhai replacing it as the dominant sub-Saharan Muslim state for about the next 100 years. But then, in 1589, the Moroccans decided that they'd conquer the Sudan, so they sent an army south and it crushed the numerically superior Songhai army at the Battle of Tondibi, crushed them as thoroughly as anything the Spanish did to the Aztecs or the Incas, if anything more so. (And remember that the Songhai army was better than the Mali army.) So then Morocco had a three-province "colony" (Timbuktu, Jenne, Gao) south of the Sahara. (By this time Mali was reduced to just one province, and they weren't in touch with the Muslims north of the Sahara any more.) Well, it turns out that you only need 3 provinces, not five, to make colonial nations when they're on the other side of the Sahara, and Morocco's three provinces promptly became, in EU IV terms, a colonial nation, for a couple of decades before they declared independence and Morocco let them go. Now this confuses people who play Paradox games, because Paradox decided to economize on country tags by reusing Mali's country tag for that Moroccan colonial nation. But really Mali was a very "primitive" (no firearms) one province minor after 1590.

 

[Yxklyx]

I know that's it not very historical but it does make for a more challenging/interesting game when nations like Japan, Tunisia and Hindustan westernize and their tech is on par with other nations for the last 100 years or so.

 

[delpiero1234]

I know that's it not very historical but it does make for a more challenging/interesting game when nations like Japan, Tunisia and Hindustan westernize and their tech is on par with other nations for the last 100 years or so.

Westernization should take longer and provide more risks in my opinion. -3stab hit is really not so bad and the events are not that bad either. All you need is a good ruler and westernization is done in no time at all.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

As to why, for me at least, is because I'd rather make them a protectorate and use their trade power. Instead I have to deal with a Mali that is westernized, rivals and embargoes me, and to deal with it I have to go all ADM points to conquer and core an area of the world that just doesn't make sense in the timeframe of the game, that's all.

Mali is not a nation that you have to core unless they conquered their neighbors. Normally, you'd just vassal them over 2-3 wars...maybe coring 1-2 provinces if you really want to keep things nice and easy.

 

[TingJonKi]

Id also like to see nations being able to reform to a Hybrid tech group of their own instead of going straight western with different unit types than western but still being relatively close to western units in pips, like eastern is currentl. itd add flavor, because im tired of seeing Napoleonic infantry in African, native american, and Indian countries


westernization shouldnt be completly possible for most countries imho but adopting some western ways should be

 

[Noctus]

Everybody and their granny westernizing so quickly is a huge immersion-breaker in a game that claims to somewhat wanting to resemble what historically happened, or could have happened realistically.

Wild worldwide westernisation in the 1600s isnt.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Everybody and their granny westernizing so quickly is a huge immersion-breaker in a game that claims to somewhat wanting to resemble what historically happened, or could have happened realistically.

Wild worldwide westernisation in the 1600s isnt.

Neither is easy conquest with facedesk tactics by the western group. What is your suggested alternative?

 

[Pete0714]

imo sub-Saharan African countries should never be able to westernize. Which is why I will be making a mod which disables westernization for African tech countries. Why do you think Europeans could draw up African borders with a pen and paper? The African nations were so backwards in comparison to the European powers, you can't deny it - open a history book if your deluded enough to think the Africans had a chance.

I suggest you research before making sweeping statements about Africa. Mali was more akin to the Northern African Muslim states than the tribes to the south. They were far more advanced than some of the other tribes, and IMO deserve quick westernization. Honestly, Africa is a huge and diverse continent, not a monolith.

 

[Fenxis]

Westernization should take longer and provide more risks in my opinion. -3stab hit is really not so bad and the events are not that bad either. All you need is a good ruler and westernization is done in no time at all.

As Japan you are in a tough spot. Do you westernize to counter Spain/Russia/other colonial aspirants or do you stay a Chinese tech country in order to diplo-annex SE Asia?

 

[delpiero1234]

As Japan you are in a tough spot. Do you westernize to counter Spain/Russia/other colonial aspirants or do you stay a Chinese tech country in order to diplo-annex SE Asia?

I understand but lets get not off topic. This thread is about Mali westernizing too fast and too early and not about Japan. (besides I've never seen an AI Japan westernizing)

 

[ShadeDragon]

I'm all for tougher westernization, but only if it gives greater rewards. Right now westernization is a bit silly with how you still have to catch up, so a sub-Saharan might still have a few decades after westernization before they're actually competitive. And really, how does it make sense that a westernized African nation has to invent medieval pike formations before they can use muskets?

Also, someone mentioned hybrid tech groups, those would be cool.

Everybody and their granny westernizing so quickly is a huge immersion-breaker in a game that claims to somewhat wanting to resemble what historically happened, or could have happened realistically.

Wild worldwide westernisation in the 1600s isnt.

And literally every single colonizable province being colonized by 1650 isn't immersion breaking?

 

[deezee]

I suggest you research before making sweeping statements about Africa. Mali was more akin to the Northern African Muslim states than the tribes to the south. They were far more advanced than some of the other tribes, and IMO deserve quick westernization. Honestly, Africa is a huge and diverse continent, not a monolith.

Even those tribes, while clearly not as advanced as Europeans and Muslims and the others of what we usually considered "civilized" society, were a lot more advanced than people realize. For example, the interior of the Congo is often used as a byword for tribalism and savagery, but it contained at least four (loosely) organized states with central governments at the time of the Belgian conquest, each of one of which had to be defeated militarily (the best documented was the Kuba Kingdom, by Sheppard's expedition, which was an agriculturally based society with a landed aristocracy and a king and his court, who commissioned art on a regular basis).

Part of the problem is that it is really unclear what Westernization even means; ideally a system would rely less on hardcoded bonuses and more on neighbor bonuses so that exposure to more and technologically advanced countries simply leads naturally to faster tech growth. This would be difficult to balance and program though, and would require a lot of time that could be used for other things.

 

[Dakilla TM]

Why make Westernization tougher? I just westernized in my Ethiopia game, and I'm still 5-6 techs behind my Muslim neighbors in each category. Even though I westernized, I still won't be able to expand and I would get my butt handed to me if I tried.

If you're gonna make people stay with their native tech, then give them more of an incentive to do so. Indian and Chinese tech are really bad, and I have not seen anyone max out their units to the most powerful ones each tech has to offer. Or heck, give everyone the same tech pace, but give Europe better starting tech, and let other non Europeans gradually be able to westernize once they make contact with the West.


I think that there should be a series of events that happen when you first encounter a Western tech nation. You can have the option to hire some foreign advisers, and they will gradually reform your nation, starting with military and administration, and then you have the final say in staying true to your social culture, adopting Western culture and ideals, or a mix of both.

I mean, an Ethiopian king didn't just wake up one day and said, "We're gonna Westernize today! Get the troops ready to fight reactionaries! Lots of things in our kingdom will change!" Yeah, your advisers will give you a funny look and ask if you had a bad dream...

 

[Carentino]

Why make Westernization tougher? I just westernized in my Ethiopia game, and I'm still 5-6 techs behind my Muslim neighbors in each category. Even though I westernized, I still won't be able to expand and I would get my butt handed to me if I tried.

If you're gonna make people stay with their native tech, then give them more of an incentive to do so. Indian and Chinese tech are really bad, and I have not seen anyone max out their units to the most powerful ones each tech has to offer. Or heck, give everyone the same tech pace, but give Europe better starting tech, and let other non Europeans gradually be able to westernize once they make contact with the West.


I think that there should be a series of events that happen when you first encounter a Western tech nation. You can have the option to hire some foreign advisers, and they will gradually reform your nation, starting with military and administration, and then you have the final say in staying true to your social culture, adopting Western culture and ideals, or a mix of both.

I mean, an Ethiopian king didn't just wake up one day and said, "We're gonna Westernize today! Get the troops ready to fight reactionaries! Lots of things in our kingdom will change!" Yeah, your advisers will give you a funny look and ask if you had a bad dream...

There really should be an incentive to stay there original tech but still be able to compete. What have done in my own personal mod is to add a lot of decisions and static modifiers to different tech groups, cultures and regions that lowers tech costs. In addition I have buffed a lot of other tech groups units so they can be somewhat competitive with western tech units if they have bigger armies. I'm still balancing it but so far I find it really nice, becuase it makes it so that countries under threat from western countries (or any country with better tech and tech group) can try to close the gap.

 

[Dakilla TM]

There really should be an incentive to stay there original tech but still be able to compete. What have done in my own personal mod is to add a lot of decisions and static modifiers to different tech groups, cultures and regions that lowers tech costs. In addition I have buffed a lot of other tech groups units so they can be somewhat competitive with western tech units if they have bigger armies. I'm still balancing it but so far I find it really nice, becuase it makes it so that countries under threat from western countries (or any country with better tech and tech group) can try to close the gap.

What mod is that?

 

[Lundensaren]

I think Westernization should still work in the current form but I would've liked the AI to use it less often.