Mali westernizes too fast

[delpiero1234]

It's 1511 and I just discovered Mali. Portugal has a colony next to them and wtf Mali is completely westernized.
Westernization for sub-sahrans is too easy.

 

[Rayder19]

Same happened to me when fighting some native american tribe. They went from average tech level of 2 to tech level 10 after less than 3 years. Don't know if this was intended or not?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The game shows them as western even if they aren't done yet.

And there's still a ton of catching up to do. It's fine. Tribes have a unique mechanic where reforming brings them up to 2 techs behind in each category but loses their native bonuses.

 

[Alliegorical]

Tribes have a unique mechanic where reforming brings them up to 2 techs behind in each category but loses their native bonuses.

Only North American native councils get to do this.

 

[RegulasFade]

This only applies to the north African groups (and most especially to Mali who has it best). Kongo and east Africa still have to wait another 50 years. And other then Mali still can take a bit for others to get a euro neighbor.

As Ironman Songhai it wasn't till I finally conquered Mali that I could westernize. And it took me till around 1550 before I had really caught up all the way in tech (although it s all dirt cheap per rank). Then it's all about colonizing the cost so no one other then Spain and Portugal can become my neighbor.

 

[Dakilla TM]

That is true, Mali gets to Westernize quickly. But Oyo, Kongo, and Kilwa have to wait decades, even a century, before they westernize. I like the AI westernizing, because it keeps things unique and offers a cool challenge.

 

[aitaituo]

But Oyo, Kongo, and Kilwa have to wait decades, even a century, before they westernize.

*twitch*

I don't like how easy Westernization has become. The process is fine, but the requirements are too low. Westernization should be the exception, not the rule.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

*twitch*

I don't like how easy Westernization has become. The process is fine, but the requirements are too low. Westernization should be the exception, not the rule.

Can't have anyone outside Europe be playable, now can we?

That's a little bit straw-ish on its own though. However, I will assert that these nations are so disadvantaged even under the current rules that they'll never, ever become a serious force in the game as AI, and in a PvP match couldn't beat any western nation unless propped up by a human until they catch up, which won't truly be until after 1600 when it comes to ideas and tech.

 

[Galaahd]

I disabled westernization.

Seeing everyone and his cousin being able to westernize quickly is a huge immersion breaker. I wish Paradox reverted that change and made it much more difficult.

 

[aitaituo]

Can't have anyone outside Europe be playable, now can we?

Human players are going to be able to fulfill whatever prerequisites to westernization there are, no matter how ludicrous you made them. Have to hold Rome, have 0 religious unity, exactly 97 legitimacy, 0 revolt risk in all provinces, exactly 6.1% overextension, and be at war with Gotland? No problem, I'm a human.

 

[TingJonKi]

Can't have anyone outside Europe be playable, now can we?

That's a little bit straw-ish on its own though. However, I will assert that these nations are so disadvantaged even under the current rules that they'll never, ever become a serious force in the game as AI, and in a PvP match couldn't beat any western nation unless propped up by a human until they catch up, which won't truly be until after 1600 when it comes to ideas and tech.

weesternization wouldnt be neccessary is paradox didnt penalize non-western tech groups as much as they do
before the Victorian Era eastern and african countries wernt the pushovers we see in the game

 

[TheMeInTeam]

weesternization wouldnt be neccessary is paradox didnt penalize non-western tech groups as much as they do
before the Victorian Era eastern and african countries wernt the pushovers we see in the game

True, if the disparity wasn't so unrealistic the necessity of westernization wouldn't be there, and it's a bit strange as a concept in the first place in this era.

 

[hajutze]

Even after the Victorian era ... caugh Ethiopia caugh

 

[EMT0]

Most every country Westernizes too fast. The entire Westernization process is pretty screwy to begin with, what with it being fast and harsh rather than being something that takes ages. I don't think you'd be transforming Russia from what it was before into a Western state in 4 years flat. IMO it shouldn't cost monarch points, should add research rate boosts, and should be a slow and not quite so immediately harsh process.

 

[AndreasPhokas]

Westernization is just weird, the current model isn't to horrible, the biggest issue is that non-western groups get pulverized(eastern and ottomans hold out for a while) by like 1550 by western nations. The pips on the non-western units need to be increased, and Asian/indian tech need to lose that monarch point penalty. If they fixed those two things I think the game would be a bit funner as a non-western nation(that and give muslims infantry between tech 12 and 20)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Westernization is just weird, the current model isn't to horrible, the biggest issue is that non-western groups get pulverized(eastern and ottomans hold out for a while) by like 1550 by western nations. The pips on the non-western units need to be increased, and Asian/indian tech need to lose that monarch point penalty. If they fixed those two things I think the game would be a bit funner as a non-western nation(that and give muslims infantry between tech 12 and 20)

The pip disparity is only super large in the late game. Indian and Western are 1 pip apart at tech 12.

That monarch point penalty is brutal though, and the scaling stops for everyone but Western after 26, and gets bad for below Ottoman before that.

 

[Fexcad]

The pip disparity is only super large in the late game. Indian and Western are 1 pip apart at tech 12.

That monarch point penalty is brutal though, and the scaling stops for everyone but Western after 26, and gets bad for below Ottoman before that.

Yeah, the pips aren't a big deal, the problem is tactics imo. Early on, before ideas/traditions really kick in, a single +.25 bonus is enough to crush an otherwise equal western neighbor. Having +.75 or even +1 against anything below Ottoman is why Africa and Asia expansion turn into an easy slaughterfest.

 

[aitaituo]

Yeah, the pips aren't a big deal, the problem is tactics imo. Early on, before ideas/traditions really kick in, a single +.25 bonus is enough to crush an otherwise equal western neighbor. Having +.75 or even +1 against anything below Ottoman is why Africa and Asia expansion turn into an easy slaughterfest.

Don't forget base morale and fire/shock modifiers and buffs from idea groups.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yeah, the pips aren't a big deal, the problem is tactics imo. Early on, before ideas/traditions really kick in, a single +.25 bonus is enough to crush an otherwise equal western neighbor. Having +.75 or even +1 against anything below Ottoman is why Africa and Asia expansion turn into an easy slaughterfest.

It's possible to be ahead of years as Chinese/Indian before 1600...closer to 1550. Running over there with an advantage of a few ideas and no military tech edge against a major Indian power would be a disaster; the Asian groups are stronger than Muslim given equal tech much of the time. A stack 40 of 20 pip Indian units would beat Tercios if both are at tech 12 still, and that's a lot to send at that point. The problem is the MP penalty and how hard these units fall off after tech 20.

Sub-Saharan and New World are so awful that they'd never have a chance though; they'd have to be reworked.

 

[Fexcad]

I've yet to see an AI Chinese/Indian get caught up in tech, having done multiple playthroughs with OE and colonizers, but I might just be paying less attention that I should.

The MP penalty is annoying, definitely. I've played more hours than I'd care to admit, but still haven't touched the far east for that reason alone.