Making use of claimants on foreign duchies

[hammelrudi]

Yes I know, something like this has been discussed before, but I did not find the answer to my questions in any of the more promising threads.

I am playing as the king of Ireland and looking to expand towards Wales and unite the Celts. So I invited a claimant to one of the welsh duchies to my court and matrilineary married him to one of my daughters. They already have a son who of course is of my dynasty.
My son-in-laws claim says "can be inherited by successor" (so there is no mention of the need to press the claim in a war in order to make it inheritable). Now, if I kill that poor bloke, the claim doesn't transfer to his son, it just disappears.
What am I missing? Does he need to be landed in order to pass on his claims?
Also, what happens if I press his claim and kill him. He wouldn't be my vassal, because Wales is not in my de jure claim and he is not a member of my dynasty. His heir however is. But I guess that won't help me much as his duchy is independent when he takes power so he is merely my ally, not my vassal?

 

[InnocentIII]

Well, "can be inherited" I think means can be inherited if pressed, just like your own claims. I did exactly this, brought in a Ducal claimant, pressed it for him, he became an independent Duke! I've had no problem thus far with County claimants, though, and then I can create the Dukedom (or usurp, presumably), though I did that in Scotland not Wales.

So I think the way to get Wales into your Kingdom is to go for less - grab a guy with a county claim. Then you create/usurp the Duchy and pass it out normally and I can't see how it would not stay in your realm. I was King of Ireland and Scotland in the Demo (with a 125 year time frame hack), and my King of Ireland currently has a Duchy in Scotland.

 

[hammelrudi]

The claimant on the county would still need to be in my dynasty to become my vassal, so I'd have the same problem again, right?

If the claim needs to be pressed in a war to be passed on, the only way to get the duchy into my realm right away would be to wage a war for the claim, have a white peace and then press the claim in the heir's name in a second war after i got rid of the original claimant? Killing the claimant right after the DoW doesn't seem to cut it, his heir does not inherit the claim.

 

[unmerged(199940)]

The tooltip isn't quite right. If the guy is your vassal already then he will still be your vassal when he becomes Duke (assuming you are King or Emperor). In some circumstances it doesn't seem to work, though. As King of Scotland I was able to invite Irish to my court and press their claims for Irish counties, and they became my vassals when I won the war. However, when I tried to invite someone and press his claim on the Duchy of Connacht, he became independent after we won.

I think this meshes with what InnocentIII said, but I'm still not sure of the mechanics.

 

[philios82]

If you have the guy in a matrilineal marriage then the children from that marriage wont be his successors, they'll be your daughter's, therefore they wont inherit the fathers claims. Thats why that didn't work.

 

[Jon-Ace]

I might try this in my Ireland game.

I just started out as Dublin and inherited Leinster (lucky me), so what I'm getting from this thread is this:

- I can find someone who has a claim on a county that I want.
- Invite to court or marry him into my dynasty.
- Declare war on the holder of the county on his behalf (count claim on behalf of the claimant).
- Win war, take county, have claimant as my vassal.

So I don't technically have to fabricate a bunch of claims to unite Ireland. I just need to find people who have claims on the lands I want and make nice with them?

 

[AlecTrevylan006]

As I understand it, if you press somebody else's claim, they will become a vassal if they satisfy any of the following 3 conditions.
1.) You press their claim and they are a dynasty member
2.) You press their claim and they are already a vassal of yours (baron, count, duke, whatever)
3.) You press their claim in an area you de jure control

So, for example, as Wales I was conquering Ireland. At first, I invited some guys to court and gave them some baronies. Then I pushed their claims and they remained my vassals and became independent. If you don't give them land first, they become independent (as happened to me the first time). Of course, you can then purposefully piss them off so they rebel and you get their titles >_>

When I had claimed and invited my way to controlling enough counties to form the Kingdom of Ireland, I could then just invite people who had claims to the remaining counties/duchies and press their claims because they were within the de jure borders of my Kingdom of Ireland title.

I expect you could do that as a duke too, but you can always just press a ducal claim against a county instead so it would be pointless for the most part, whereas being a king does not give you casus belli against independents in your de jure borders.

 

[AlecTrevylan006]

I might try this in my Ireland game.

I just started out as Dublin and inherited Leinster (lucky me), so what I'm getting from this thread is this:

- I can find someone who has a claim on a county that I want.
- Invite to court or marry him into my dynasty.
- Declare war on the holder of the county on his behalf (count claim on behalf of the claimant).
- Win war, take county, have claimant as my vassal.

So I don't technically have to fabricate a bunch of claims to unite Ireland. I just need to find people who have claims on the lands I want and make nice with them?

IF you give them land first. Or make them your dynasty through matrinlineal marriage. Or unite Ireland first.

If you just invite them and press their claims without a reason for them to become your vassal, they'll be independent.

 

[InnocentIII]

IF you give them land first. Or make them your dynasty through matrinlineal marriage. Or unite Ireland first.

If you just invite them and press their claims without a reason for them to become your vassal, they'll be independent.

Not true. I've had no problems at all pressing the claims of people I've invited to my court and having them become my vassal counts. I don't give them land, or marry them to anyone. I invite, they arrive, and before they find a place to lie down we're off to war. The only trouble I've had is with Ducal claims (same as jossief).

What prevents you from doing this in 1066, and possibly other start dates, is that the game starts with nearly no existing claimants. You have to wait for the first generation to die off, then there's a flock of pretenders. Also, of course, not everyone is willing to join your court. I've have many counties where there was a long list of claimants with red thumbs-down symbols.

But they do not need to be given land, or to marry into anything (usually the courtier brings a wife and kids to my court). Just press the claim, and oddly enough the guy who went from being a drunk whining about what was rightfully his to a man with his own castle, army and vassals is willing to serve as the vassal to the person who gave him all that. At least for a while.

 

[AlecTrevylan006]

Not true. I've had no problems at all pressing the claims of people I've invited to my court and having them become my vassal counts. I don't give them land, or marry them to anyone. I invite, they arrive, and before they find a place to lie down we're off to war. The only trouble I've had is with Ducal claims (same as jossief).

What prevents you from doing this in 1066, and possibly other start dates, is that the game starts with nearly no existing claimants. You have to wait for the first generation to die off, then there's a flock of pretenders. Also, of course, not everyone is willing to join your court. I've have many counties where there was a long list of claimants with red thumbs-down symbols.

But they do not need to be given land, or to marry into anything (usually the courtier brings a wife and kids to my court). Just press the claim, and oddly enough the guy who went from being a drunk whining about what was rightfully his to a man with his own castle, army and vassals is willing to serve as the vassal to the person who gave him all that. At least for a while.

Ah, I had only tried it on dukes.

Well, counts are easier then!

 

[unmerged(169164)]

Now, if I kill that poor bloke, the claim doesn't transfer to his son, it just disappears.
What am I missing?

The claim is inherited by the successor.

The successor is not forcefully the son or the daughter. Letting the tool tip hover on the claim shows the list of the three first heirs.

If you manage a matrilinear marriage, it is probably because there are three other first claimants. If heirs are on the top three shorthlist, they do not want to dilute their lineage as they are contenders.
If you kill the fourth or +th, you probably just vaporize the claim as the first born, the duplicate and the spare are deemed enough to ensure the lineage. The fourth was never supposed to inherit anyway.

Maybe it changes if the son of the noble you invited to your court comes to age.

 

[sffrrrom]

Not true. I've had no problems at all pressing the claims of people I've invited to my court and having them become my vassal counts. I don't give them land, or marry them to anyone. I invite, they arrive, and before they find a place to lie down we're off to war. The only trouble I've had is with Ducal claims (same as jossief).

What prevents you from doing this in 1066, and possibly other start dates, is that the game starts with nearly no existing claimants. You have to wait for the first generation to die off, then there's a flock of pretenders. Also, of course, not everyone is willing to join your court. I've have many counties where there was a long list of claimants with red thumbs-down symbols.

But they do not need to be given land, or to marry into anything (usually the courtier brings a wife and kids to my court). Just press the claim, and oddly enough the guy who went from being a drunk whining about what was rightfully his to a man with his own castle, army and vassals is willing to serve as the vassal to the person who gave him all that. At least for a while.

Is there a way to sort for claimants for a particular title?

 

[-Rodri-]

I think if you as a Duke press a ducal claim of someone who you just invited (or matrilineage married), you´re not going to be his liege as you´re going to be of the same level. Happened as a Duke of Connacht, pressing another irish ducal claim.

 

[Eastshire]

I think if you as a Duke press a ducal claim of someone who you just invited (or matrilineage married), you´re not going to be his liege as you´re going to be of the same level. Happened as a Duke of Connacht, pressing another irish ducal claim.

Even as a king, if you don't have a du jure kingdom over the duchy, he'll end up independent. Had it happen to me as King of Bohemia.

 

[unmerged(169164)]

Is there a way to sort for claimants for a particular title?

No. But it is useless. Clicking on the shield of a title gives the option of claimants which lists the potential claimants with a thumb toknown if they accept or not.

 

[zxc]

Is there a way to sort for claimants for a particular title?

If you open the coat of arms window for the title you want, at the top there's a blue button named 'Claimants', and you can see them all listed there.