making pops liberal... and making them stay liberal

[mib]

OK here's the situation:

I turned my Großeschinesischesreich (grand Chinese empire) into a multiparty parlimentary democracy with full suffrage, all parties, public meetings, free press but no trade union. To prepare for this change I raised poor taxes to 100%. This was before the liberal revolution. So slowly but surely my pops changed from conservative to liberal. At the onset of the liberal revolution there were about 50% liberals, 40% socialists and 10% conservatives.

So I thought to myself, 40% of my 450,000,000 men empire being commies is not good. So I assumed I set my poor taxes too high (which was true) and lowered it to 80%~. Poof. All the commies were gone. But so were the liberals. Now my empire was 80% conservative. I immediately raised taxes back to 100%, and decided to wait it out and give my liberals some time to become loyal to their beliefs. But the problem was, so would the socialists. Then I took a look at the pop ledger, and wow, my people were piss-poor. So I spent 3 million pounds and gave them good healthcare, and subsidized tariffs and much as I could.

I decided to switch to democracy asap, and believed that with a friendly, liberal government in place my guys would have more trust in liberalism. Nah. Even with a liberal party in power (I edited the parties file to make the reformers appear in 1961), and all the plurality-giving inventions popped, as soon as I lower the taxes a BIT these guys would immediately go conservative. However with my exorbitant taxes all my pops were slowly becoming socialists! (No commies yet, thankfully.) Worse yet, the commies seem to like conservative parties better than liberals! In the last election the conservatives won, and all those nasty plurality-minusing events popped one by one...

Now my population stands at 540,000,00, of which approximately 310,000,000 are national pops. My custom liberal party has full citizenship, so I thought my 45% minorities would support my full citizenship liberal party rather than the residence conservative party... but no. They must be commies, and vote for conservatives.

So my question is: How do I make my pops stay as liberals, and not go become socialists and voting for conservatives??? I'm a bit afraid of a commie revolution, as you all know what happened to China IRL... Even though I have no commie parties.

 

[unmerged(37275)]

Interesting question. Im not entirly sure how to resolve it with taxs etc. As far as I know if pops have cash reserves, or there basic needs met, then they will have their default ideology (conservative for farmers and labourers). The less basic needs they have, the more likely they are to switch ideologies. What is the militacy of the socialists. I dont know if that also plays a role in changing ideology, whether they are conservative, libreals or socialists (so less basic needs and higher taxs, means more militacy which leads to change to liberal, then socialist and then extreme). If they have high militacy, find out why and try and correct it (martial law perhaps. Having lots of liberals in a conservative run govenmnet I think will cause a penalty to militacy). To be honest, I rarely get socialists, so I dont really know why they occur, this is just my best guess as to the possible problems (im sure someone with more knowledge in the area can fill us both in).

However, if you convert large numbers of pops to clerks, then their ideology will change to libreal (clerks are naturally libreals). This is not neccessarily a bad thing (though will initally cost a lot if palying vip) as it will benifit you in the long run (more research, can have more productive factories and they apparently bring in more money than standard farmers even when unemployed (thanks to theflemishduck see the civilisation - industrilsation is ruining my economy thread)).

I have seen it before with China. Played a game right through until the end with monachy and no militancy because the pops were all conservative. This was in my early days, before I did a mass industrilisation program. Now I find I have to change govenments a lot sooner to keep them happy.

 

[mib]

Before the conservative party was voted into power the militancy of the socialists was at approx 1 to 2. I have good healthcare and 70% plurality. At first I wasn't too worried about it since logically socialists would vote for the liberals given an absence of socialist parties.

There is/was no threat of revolutions etc, only sporadic rebellions in Russia. :rofl: When at peace the revoltrisk map pretty much stays all green.

Converting clerks is kind of difficult for China... 500,000,000 pop. Right now I have approx 13% clerks which is 65,000,000 clerks... more than the population of most countries but small for China.

 

[Grosshaus]

All POP types have a base ideology which they prefer, only if their consciousness is low they might choose otherwise. All base ideologies have two variants: moderate and hard-line. The latter is chosen by the POP when his consciousness rises. I might have some wrong, but here are the base ideologies:

Slaves: socialist
Farmers: socialist
Labourer: socialist
Craftsman: socialist (or is it liberal?)
Clerks: liberal
Capitalis: liberal
Soldier: conservative (or was it socialist?)
Clergymen: conservative
Officers: conservative
Aristocrats: conservative

So the only lasting way to keep your POPs liberal is to make them clerks or capitalists and keep their militancy relatively down so they don´t turn anarcho-liberals.

 

[King]

I am pretty sure the only switch to the hardline version of their ideology when their militancy is high.

 

[mib]

But it's nigh impossible to have a country of 50% clerks and capitalists...

 

[Hatt]

craftsmen are liberals too

 

[unmerged(38918)]

craftsmen are liberals too

I concurr

 

[mib]

OK I went back and took a look at my pops, the %age of clerks + capitalists + craftsmen add up to approx 30%.

I experimented around a bit, and with a laissez-faire and free trade party (ie 50% max tax) my country again became 65% conservative 35% liberal. Which seems to suggest that indeed the pop's ideology given sufficient standard of living will be predetermined.

But why are my farmers and labourers not socialist now that I lowered their taxes? They pretty much all were before that.

I chose populism in populism vs establishment, and the issues of my liberal party fits pretty much with the issues of the pops... yet they still voted conservative!!!

Any way to solve this problem, besides converting another 300,000,000 clerks and craftsmen, bumping my industrial score to a few million? Not to mention that would take a few decades to build all those factories... and I still can't build aircrafts, electric parts etc... and somehow I'm running out of 70000-80000 chunk pops!

 

[Grosshaus]

Note that often it takes time for changes to have an impact, if consciousness of a POP changes -0.02 it´s a long time before it goes from 9 to 1.

 

[unmerged(37275)]

Are you sure labourers and farmers are baseline socialist? Im was farily certain they were conservative (if getting all there basic needs). I think that if you push them to stavation (raise taxs), then they may become socalist, and if militacy goes up, eventually extremists (communists).

Conciousness may have an effect. What are the pops conciousness? Perhaps staving pops with low conciousness will be liberal, staving pops with high will be socialist (watch militacy though). Then again, low conciousness they may become conservative agin.

Are any of your farmers turning liberal? If so, post the difference between the farmers that are liberal, and the ones that are socialist (militancy, consiousness, basic needs, cash reserves etc). That may indicate why there is a difference. If no farmers are turning liberal then it may be impossible to make them.

However, I think that apart from staving them and not giving them any money (which will start to slightly annoy them and possibly make them rebel), making conservatives STAY liberal if you achive it will be impossible. As soon as you give them money they will revert to conservative. So the real answer is, im afraid, to convert them to clerks etc. What is your finace like? If you are maing a lot, just convert loads of clerks in poor provinces. You prob wont notice the difference (esp the unemployed ones, which china has a lot of).

I think the point is that with the emergance of an educated middle class, more liberal views are spread. Lots of poor farmers dont really have time to think or worry about stuff like that, and so if content will remain conservative.

 

[Grosshaus]

One more thing: nobody will be socialist/communist in the early part of the game.

 

[Chris8b]

I chose populism in populism vs establishment, and the issues of my liberal party fits pretty much with the issues of the pops... yet they still voted conservative!!!

Low CON POPs tend to vote for the incumbent political party. At high CON, POPS tend to vote based on their ideology or issues.

-C

 

[Strategist]

It really all depends on your taxing settings. Ussually: High taxes, low tarifs makes up for a liberal population, low taxes makes conservative, and high tax, high tariffs makes socialist. Indeed due to their base types some are easier affected then others, but if you fiddle a bit with taxes and tarifs you can get more then 80% of each ideology, within about a year. So, I guess you sir had your tarifs high all the time, meaning that when you increased taxes the people turned to liberals, but right after that they continued to turn to socialists due to tarifs. Then you decreased taxes, so they returned to conservatives, and thats it...

 

[mib]

Here. Taken in 1880. The socialists are all but gone and there are some anarcho liberals... wonder what put them there.

As for the CON and MIL, from a rough estimation according to the ledger, almost 85% of the pops have <3 MIL, and almost 70% of the people have >6 CON.

 

[unmerged(37275)]

I guess your people are happy. If they are happy they will have their base ideology. If they are unhappy, then they will switch. My guess is you are providing enough basic needs to keep them all happy. The number of conservatives roughly adds up to the number of farmers and labouours, the number of liberals roughly adds up to the number of clerks and craftsmen (fitting the idea that they are all happy and at base ideology).

Its not quite right, so there may be some liberal farmers out there, or some conservative clerks. If you can find these, and see how they compare to their conservative/liberal couterparts you will have some idea how to make more liberals/less conservatives.

You have vast sums of money, and a fairly large income. So just build factories and convert to clerks. Really, I beleive this is the only way to resolve your situation. It may even be true that in the early game farmers and labourers will convert to liberal if not getting basic needs, but in the later game (your position) they switch to converting to socialist. So you may not be able to change the situation with anything as simple as tax fiddling.

As far as I know for CON, it only really effects whether they vote for the party with the ideolgy/same concerns as they have (high con), or whether they vote a little more randomly (low con).