Making navies more important

[Lasse Nielsen]

I hope that they are going to make navies more important by not allowing armies cross bodies of wather without bording transports.
One of the things that saved Denmark ass in the two wars against Sleswig-Holstein and their german allies (most notably Prussia) was it's navy which prevented the germans to cross over from Jutland to Fyn and Seeland (Sjæland) it even made importent strategic redeployments that helped win the battle of Fredericia (one of the few danish victories in the war of 1848-50).

This was one of my biggest complaints with both EU and HoI that to many bodys of watter could be traversed by foot without any use of a fleet, thus diminishing a natural defensive obstacle wich was one of the cornerstones in danish (and probably others) defense.

 

[unmerged(15623)]

Well, if you don't already know, the "land" connection between Jutland and Sjæland was removed some time ago from EU2.

I compleatly agree with your points though. I especially hated those pacific island chains in HoI.

 

[unmerged(6303)]

Make navies more important by abstracting the hell out of them. To the point that the only variables the game keeps track of are how many ships you have in your fleet in each ocean, and what their mission is (from a range like piracy/protect our trade/protect everyones trade). The percentage chance of successfully moving ships through an ocean should depend on the ratio between the size of your fleet stationed nearby and the size of your enemy's fleet. This would also give some sort of insurance premium modifier for the cost of trading through that ocean.

Very occasionally, it you both have lots of ships somewhere and their missions are appropriate, the game should randomly report a "sea battle" and reduce the size of the fleets.

I think this is more powerful than the EU way of dealing with ships, and a lot easier on the player and the AI.

 

[degenerate]

you mean similar to the way that imperialism did navies? that wasn't too bad, and it certainly made them important on the random map.

 

[unmerged(6303)]

Originally posted by degenerate
you mean similar to the way that imperialism did navies? that wasn't too bad, and it certainly made them important on the random map.

Now that you mention it, yes.

Localizing ships in one small sea-zone seems to give trouble to the AI, and I don't think it adds much to the game.

 

[Papa Chubby]

It would seem a very nice implementation, to remove the micromanagement of your navies. A question would be how you would affect troop deployment, the same way. Also a more vital issue, what about navy attrition, while not a very nice condition, a historically accurate one.

Personally I would want to seem them more effective in controlling the seas. An example would be the ability to manage trade lanes on the seas, that way it would become important to be able to defend your sea lanes (merchantmen) from enemy navies. Another feature I think would add to its potency, would be to allow the fleets to stop for perhaps 3-4 days, maybe an changeble variable, when they are set on patrol.

 

[unmerged(6303)]

Originally posted by Papa Chubby
It would seem a very nice implementation, to remove the micromanagement of your navies. A question would be how you would affect troop deployment, the same way. Also a more vital issue, what about navy attrition, while not a very nice condition, a historically accurate one.

Personally I would want to seem them more effective in controlling the seas. An example would be the ability to manage trade lanes on the seas, that way it would become important to be able to defend your sea lanes (merchantmen) from enemy navies. Another feature I think would add to its potency, would be to allow the fleets to stop for perhaps 3-4 days, maybe an changeble variable, when they are set on patrol.

Give a fleet a maintenance cost. This should depend on the size of the fleet; the distance, modified by tech, from its station to the nearest naval base (building one of these should be a major undertaking); by the size of the ocean where it is stationed (long abstract patrols mean more attrition); and by the enemy presence between the base and the station. If you do not pay full maintenance for your fleet, you will lose ships to attrition.

 

[unmerged(7417)]

Fleets already have maintainence costs.

 

[unmerged(5228)]

I agree that something needs to be done to make sea power more important- we are going to be playing through the age of Alfred T. Mahan for the love of God! EU2 and HOI are fun games but the naval aspect really needs improvement since they don't seem to have that great an effect on the game.

Like some other people have mentioned, abstracting navies and fleet action would improve gameplay and take out a lot of micromanagement that detracts from the fun. I also liked the way Imperialism dealt with navies. They made the naval aspect of the game fairly simple and yet it was still vitally important to the game- I remember playing it my first time and how I built a huge army but totally neglected the navy. When war broke out my country was starved for raw material and I actually went bankrupt.

 

[unmerged(5664)]

Why Tricky Dick - I didn't know you ventured out of the OT forum much!


I agree with the sentiments regarding increasing the importance of navies. But I sure would like to actually build some battleships and the HMS Dreadnaught, and abstracting a navy too far will lose that...

 

[unmerged(6303)]

Originally posted by BarristerBoy
Why Tricky Dick - I didn't know you ventured out of the OT forum much!


I agree with the sentiments regarding increasing the importance of navies. But I sure would like to actually build some battleships and the HMS Dreadnaught, and abstracting a navy too far will lose that...

It needn't be abstracted too far then. You can build the ships (if parliament passes the necessary bills, I hope) but then you assign them to a base and an ocean, rather than to a particular sea zone. Think of it as quantum mechanics; in EU, the game models a ship's precise position, but not its role (that is, the player has to manually control patrols, battles etc.). Why not have the game model its role, but not localize the ship, instead spreading its wave function all over the ocean.

Trade is likely to be pretty abstract in the game. The important role of navies is to safeguard trade and dangerousguard the other chap's trade. If trade is abstract, the navy should be too, or there will be problems in getting one to affect the other.

 

[unmerged(16328)]

Well, if you don't already know, the "land" connection between Jutland and Sjæland was removed some time ago from EU2.

Has it?
I've never noticed that... Could be due to not going near Denmark for a few patches but I'm certain its still there...

 

[unmerged(10435)]

Originally posted by foolish_child
Has it?
I've never noticed that... Could be due to not going near Denmark for a few patches but I'm certain its still there...

Yup it is.

Gone that is. God, how stupid my first answer was...

 

[Vynd]

In my eyes, the naval aspect of EUII and HoI is among their greatest problems. It is neither realistic nor is it particularly fun. It is child's play for a human player to make amphibious invasions of any place you care to name, for example. If I'm able to sail over and invade England without even having to fight their fleet most of the time in Victoria, like I've done in EUII and HoI, then I will be greatly disappointed.

I agree that a more abstract system might well be better.

 

[Grosshaus]

I normally try to avoid building ships in both EU2 and HoI (with the exception of subs), so an improvement of some kind would be in order.

Although geographicly incorrect, I like those land bridges of Denmark, Bosbor straits etc. just because they remove lots of micro-management. In that aspect a further abstraction might be in order. Perhaps they could be bypassed by giving an option to give a unit "water transport" brigade?

On the other hand Victorian era saw the transformation of sailships to steam power with significant tactical/strategic option. Steamship had better mobility, but were useless without coal. How can this be represented without representing individual ships and their supplies in the HoI way?

 

[unmerged(6303)]

Originally posted by Grosshaus
I normally try to avoid building ships in both EU2 and HoI (with the exception of subs), so an improvement of some kind would be in order.

Although geographicly incorrect, I like those land bridges of Denmark, Bosbor straits etc. just because they remove lots of micro-management. In that aspect a further abstraction might be in order. Perhaps they could be bypassed by giving an option to give a unit "water transport" brigade?

On the other hand Victorian era saw the transformation of sailships to steam power with significant tactical/strategic option. Steamship had better mobility, but were useless without coal. How can this be represented without representing individual ships and their supplies in the HoI way?

For the last paragraph, associate each fleet with a naval base. The range the fleet can be stationed from the base will depend on your tech. The base must have a regular coal supply.

For the land bridges, you could make them as they are now, but impassable if the enemy has a strong naval presence in surrounding waters.

 

[Grosshaus]

Combined with a chance to obstruct enemies supplies with destroyers/subs/privateers sounds pausible. But if there will be different kinds of supplies/materials that are transported like in HoI, then I'd like to be able to see where the supply lines go.

Also the thing with the land bridges and strong navies suits me. There should though be a system of giving some damage to passing troops by a smaller fleet and more from a bigger, instead of a Medieval-style all-or-nothing thingie.

 

[unmerged(6160)]

All I know is, navies must be very important....

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Imperialism was great that way, one of the few games that actually rewarded proper use of a large navy.

So deadly were the enemy ships I would keep my merchants in port while at war unless bankruptcy was imminent. Literally nothing more frustrating in that game than getting finished goods and ships captured by the enemy fleet.

 

[Tim O]

You can tell from the African screenshot that that kind of abstraction isn't going to happen, your going to have to think of different ways to make navies more important.