Making Crime more in-depth

[Tamwin5]

Currently, crime is very boring, and the crime lord deal is OP. That said, the system as it is currently is a good base, and with some simple expansions I would be quite happy with it. This suggestion inspired by discussion in this thread.

First, some light balance.

• Enforces only reduce 20 crime (down from 25)
• Every 10 crime gives -1 stability.

The enforcer tweak is designed so that it's more likely there will be some light crime on every planet. This can be combated by using the anti-crime campaign planetary decision, which raises the total crime reduction up to 30. On any normal planet, this will be enough to drop crime to 0. It also makes dealing with a criminal syndicate branch office harder, likely requiring more than just a single precinct house.
Currently, crime has no direct effects. Since the Crime lord deal disables all the negative crime events, it means that max crime with the crime lord deal has no downside. With crime giving a small stability malus, it means that the less crime there is, the less effective the crime lord deal is (due to it also giving 50 crime). Only when crime is naturally high does it start to become beneficial.

Besides events, the other negative aspect of crime is that you will get some pops working as criminals. A criminal gives a whopping -1 trade value. Oh no. How will your economy ever recover? This is boring and weak. Instead of just making the criminal job more painful though, I figured that some other types of criminal jobs could be added.

New Criminal jobs

• Criminal: -5 Trade Value | These criminals live outside the bounds of legal society, some by choice and some by circumstances.
• Trafficker: -10% pop growth. -5% happiness. | The kidnapping and sale of sapients, while rare, creates many horror stories and nightmarish tales.
• Smuggler: -10% trade value. | Pilots, drivers, and middle men who move goods without tax or tariff.
• Drug Dealer: -10% job output. +5% happiness. | Illegal and addictive, these drugs promise escape but only create chains of dependance.
• Mobster: -10 Trade Value | Coordinated and efficient, organized crime lives up to it's name.
• Don: -0.1 Trade value per pop. | Dons, and the Mob Bosses under them, coordinate the wide scale rackets, embezzlements, and money laundering schemes that engulf this entire planet.

These new jobs will be given, in various amounts, by the crime modifiers that spawn on a planet. If you want to know what the current ones are to compare, check the wiki.

New Modifier jobs

Criminal Underworld - This world is home to a large criminal underworld.
+15 Crime
+1 Criminal Job
+1 Criminal Job per 33 crime

Center of Drug Trade - The world has become a major center of drug trade. Illegal narcotics are being smuggled planetside on a daily basis, with a large segment of the populace being regular users.
+30 Crime
+1 Smuggler
+1 Drug Dealer per 33 crime

Gang Wars - The world is currently in the middle of a very destructive gang war between two or more organized crime factions. Heavy fighting is ongoing between the rivaling gangs, with local security forces trapped in the middle.
+30 Crime -5 Stability
+100 army starting expereince
+1 Trafficker
+1 Mobster per 33 crime

Criminal Hive (New) - The world has become a hive of scum and villainy, with ten thousand different petty gangs constantly in conflict. The constant chaos has prevented large organizations from forming or taking hold.
+30 Crime
+1 Drug Dealer
+1 Trafficker per 33 crime

Mob Rule - The world is currently dominated by a single criminal organization. They have infiltrated all layers of society, and little happens here without their involvement or permission.
+30 Crime
+1 Don
+1 Mobster per 33 crime

There are also some changes to a couple of the temporary modifiers that can pop up. Substance abuse now gives +1 Drug Dealer and -10% job production. Smuggler activity gives +1 Smuggler and -10% trade value.


Now currently, the crime lord deal prevents ANY events from firing. I'm changing this so that if crime reaches 30 with the crime lord deal, the Criminal Underworld fires anyway. If crime reaches 80 with the crime lord deal, it's replaced with Mob Rule. Have to be careful dealing with criminals, or things might get out of control...

One negative aspect of the fact these job changes drastically lowers trade value is that it hurts criminal syndicates. To remedy this, Criminal Syndicates would simply ignore the losses from various crime jobs when the calculate how much they make. This would require a bit of extra coding work, but is the easiest solution I think.

---

On a slightly separate note, there would also be special jobs added related to low stability and revolt. These would also occupy the criminal 'strata'. To take one of these jobs, pops would need to be part of an unhappy faction and unhappy themselves.

• Dissident: -5 unity. -100% Governing Ethics Attraction. - Some speak openly on the streets and the net, others leave leaflets and spray-painted slogans. Their message is the same.
• Terrorist: -10 unity. -5 stability. - Some have so little faith in the government, they would rather burn it to the ground then work within the system. The ends justify the means.
• Saboteur: -20% job output. - Computer viruses, cut wires, jammed gears. There are a hundred ways to grind an assembly line to a halt, and a thousands angry workers willing to perform direct acts of rebellion.

---

When I have time later, I'll take a look at Gestalt Deviancy. I hope I can make them more interesting, as well as unique from each other.

 

[Tamwin5]

Eh, I can see the thread of logic, but it seems even that is too kind for a Swarm, who as far as we can tell, are cursed with an absolutely insatiable hunger that never, ever ends. They're always starving, so the parent will always eat the young without a second thought.

Oh well. It's fun to spitball.

Well, they have enough self control to not eat their planet to extinction, at the very least. So there is "precedent", such that's you'd call it.

 

[Methone]

Well, they have enough self control to not eat their planet to extinction, at the very least. So there is "precedent", such that's you'd call it.

Well yeah, but that's them having enough self control to not commit suicide. They absolutely have to control themselves there. There's no reason not to eat this second mind, one that's eating food and taking it from them.

 

[Tamwin5]

Well yeah, but that's them having enough self control to not commit suicide. They absolutely have to control themselves there. There's no reason not to eat this second mind, one that's eating food and taking it from them.

If they didn't want the second mind, then they should have controlled deviancy and not nurtured it.

The key here is player agency. I'm not telling the player "you have to play exactly the way I want you to, and rp to follow my image". I'm letting the player decide whether they are the type of devouring swarm who eats everything indiscriminately, or the type who wants to nurture and release their offspring on the galaxy. Stellaris is a game about emergent storytelling. This option lets those stories emerge.

 

[Tamwin5]

I added army experience to the Gang Wars modifier, and also added -livestock and -purge output to the insurgent job. Both of those primarily just flavor changes.

I'm currently working on robot jobs, but am having a lot of trouble coming up with good names for the jobs. Any suggestions or inspiration would be greatly appreciated.

 

[TimeMask]

I don't have strong opinon on these specific mechanics, but I do think crime should be more interesting modifier. Currently as its been said, enforcers are so strong that they will basically eliminate crime until late game overpopulation happens without even needing to build buildings for more enforcers, deal with crime lord is weirdly beneficial and criminal jobs don't really do much. There being more types of criminal jobs would help them be more dynamic, but I'm not sure that is enough. My main problem with criminals is that they are so easy to ignore that you have to on purpose try to have high crime rate.

On my necrophage run last week, I had no criminals at all until one of governors gained that criminal increasing negative trait <_< After that I moved them to 3 planet sector to see what happens and even then I had to kinda self sabotage so that enforcers weren't filled to give chance for criminals to build up. And then later made one of planets penal colony just for funsies(I don't really see penal colonies being super useful because of how easy crime is to deal with) And for long time that was my only source of crime, until late game happened and I was too lazy to micromanage so crime started up showing on high unemployment high overcrowding planets.

I kinda think that crime should in a way be its own "faction". Like I'm not saying that they should be creating planetary blockers or stealing your unusued building slots(though that could be cool), I'm saying it should be something that you have to take in account since from start of the game and they just get tougher to deal with over the time. Crime should feel more dynamic indeed

I do agree with there being "rebel strata" would be more interesting even if they share strata with criminal strata.

 

[drawar]

I think every pop should have a crime value. This value would be modified by certain "genetic" traits, its happiness, ethics (a xenophobic pop would be more inclined to be criminal in a xenophile empire) and other modifiers affecting the pops.

The sum of these crime values (after applying the modifiers for planet, empire etc.) will give a crime value for the planet. The crime value of the planet will create criminal jobs.
There would be 4 levels of criminal jobs.

Level 0 :
The criminals level 0 are not true pops (unless you have a system where one pop could have two jobs). It represents more the small occassional crimes.
These crimes have little impact on the planet and represent “normal” delinquency, but it can provide insight into potential future dangers if crime increases.

Level 1 or Criminal Worker :
The level 1 represents real criminal jobs with a pop.
These criminals cause real serious disturbance to the population, but relatively minor at the state level. They are basically lone criminals or small unorganized groups These are Worker level jobs.

Level 2 or Criminal Specialist :
This level is starting to get serious. This means that small criminal organizations are in place. If these are not controlled, the situation may worsen. These jobs are of the specialist type, these jobs have the unfortunate tendency to create additional inferior criminal jobs.

Level 3 or Criminal Ruler :
This level represents planetary criminal organizations that escape state control, or even that have set up their own parallel state. This type of crime will create jobs for criminal specialists who themselves will create jobs for criminal workers.
Eradicating this kind of organization is difficult and time consuming. The hard way risks plunging the planet into a kind of civil war.



There are different categories of crimes, one for each ethic.
A pop takes a criminal job only if his ethics are compatible and the rank is valid, a ruler will not take a criminal worker job.
Each category has its own effects and events which become more and more important with the number of criminals and especially with higher level criminals.

Heretical sect :
Ethic : Spriritualisme
Job Rank :
- Prophet
- Guru
- Devout
- Follower

Effect :
- Increases the attraction of spiritualistic ethics
- Decrease unity

Event :
- Indoctrination: pops can be removed and forcibly indoctrinated (become a spiritualist)
- Laboratory and temple sabotage.

Mafia :
Ethic : Materialisme
Job Rank :
- Don
- Capot
- "Soldier"
- Associate

Effect :
- Decreases the trade value
- Product of Consumer Goods

Event :
- Theft of credit and resources
- Assassination

Milicia:
Ethic : Militarisme
Job Rank :
- "Colonel"
- "Capitaine"
- "Lieutenant"
- "Soldier"

Effect :
- Decreases Ameties
- Create defense Armies

Event :
- Rebellion
- "Self-defense": can attack other criminal groups with arms ...

Peace movement :
Ethic : Pacisfisme
Job Rank :
- Peacemaker
- Militant
- Activist
- Protester

Effect :
- Increases the attraction of pacfisme ethics
- Decreases the defense of the planet (efficiency of military units)

Event :
- General strike: significant drop in job production.
- Demilitarization: deactivate all military buildings on the planet and their jobs. Prevent the recruitment of soldiers from this planet.

Extremist nationalism :
Ethic : Xenophobe
Job Rank :
- Lord Protector
- Protector
- Gardian
- «Racist» (no idea for name)

Effect :
- Decrease the immigration pull
- Increase unity

Event :
- Xenophobic act: decreases the happiness of “foreign” pops.
- Purge: Murder of several "aliens".

Antispeciesism :
Ethic : Xénophile
Job Rank :
- Liberator
- Militant
- Activist
- Protester

Effect :
- Decreases the production of “alien slave“ pops
- Increase the immigration pull

Event :
- Liberation: “alien slaves“ are freed and flee elsewhere.
- “Alien Slave“ rebellion

Egality :
Ethic : Egalitarisme
Job Rank :
- Liberator
- Militant
- Activist
- Protester

Effect :
- Decreases the production of “no alien slave“ pops
- Increase pop hapinesse

Event :
- Liberation: “no alien slaves“ are freed and flee elsewhere.
- “no Alien Slave“ rebellion

Supremacist :
Ethic : Authoritarisme
Job Rank :
- Dominator
- Great Master
- Master
- Superior

Effect :
- Increases the production of “slave“ pops
- Decrease pop hapinesse

Event :
- Slavery: Create slaves by force, even if the laws do not allow it.
- Coup : Take power over the planet.



Finally, here is the basic general idea. Each category has its own specificities. Several types of crime can exist and which manifests itself in several ways, sometimes by violence, others not or less (although they can also have serious consequences). Several criminal groups could possibly be present at the same time on the same planet. These groups may or may not tolerate each other, especially if their ethic is opposed.

Criminals are overall negative, but each can have its advantages. Each group also has its own possible decisions: to fight against, use them or make agreements ...
But, of course, all this comes at a price when negotiating with short and long term "criminals" ... But hey, these Xur'tho pacifists are annoying and I can not get rid of them legally ... What a tragedy if they are "annoyed" by Narathos wanting only to preserve the purity of our empire...


To fight crime, enforcers generate a “security” value.
This security value reduces the effects of criminals according to the balance of power between the value of crime and security.
Crime can never be completely eliminated, but its effects can be greatly reduced, but not totally. High-ranking criminals are also less affected by the value of security.
There is also a possibility that criminal pop will be arrested. This will shut down the criminal use of pop (or suppress it, if the conditions no longer met or if an event does not create).
An arrested pop will occupy a "prisoner" type job for a certain time. After a while, the prisoner's job will be cut, but there is a risk that he will become a criminal again.
The length of the sentence can be defined by the laws of the empire: short, long, perpetuity ... to supply camps of workers on a prison planet ...

The higher the level of crime, the more level 0 criminals there are. The more level 0 criminals there are, the more real level 1 criminal jobs created and so on. The effect is all the more important if the level of security is lower than the level of crime. Events and decisions can also harm the creation of jobs for criminals or help ... However, be careful, the higher the level of security in relation to the population, the more the population will feel oppressed (especially the egalitarians, less authoritarians) and lose happiness ...

 

[Tamwin5]

I think every pop should have a crime value. This value would be modified by certain "genetic" traits, its happiness, ethics (a xenophobic pop would be more inclined to be criminal in a xenophile empire) and other modifiers affecting the pops.

The sum of these crime values (after applying the modifiers for planet, empire etc.) will give a crime value for the planet. The crime value of the planet will create criminal jobs.
There would be 4 levels of criminal jobs.

Level 0 :
The criminals level 0 are not true pops (unless you have a system where one pop could have two jobs). It represents more the small occassional crimes.
These crimes have little impact on the planet and represent “normal” delinquency, but it can provide insight into potential future dangers if crime increases.

Level 1 or Criminal Worker :
The level 1 represents real criminal jobs with a pop.
These criminals cause real serious disturbance to the population, but relatively minor at the state level. They are basically lone criminals or small unorganized groups These are Worker level jobs.

Level 2 or Criminal Specialist :
This level is starting to get serious. This means that small criminal organizations are in place. If these are not controlled, the situation may worsen. These jobs are of the specialist type, these jobs have the unfortunate tendency to create additional inferior criminal jobs.

Level 3 or Criminal Ruler :
This level represents planetary criminal organizations that escape state control, or even that have set up their own parallel state. This type of crime will create jobs for criminal specialists who themselves will create jobs for criminal workers.
Eradicating this kind of organization is difficult and time consuming. The hard way risks plunging the planet into a kind of civil war.



There are different categories of crimes, one for each ethic.
A pop takes a criminal job only if his ethics are compatible and the rank is valid, a ruler will not take a criminal worker job.
Each category has its own effects and events which become more and more important with the number of criminals and especially with higher level criminals.

Heretical sect :
Ethic : Spriritualisme
Job Rank :
- Prophet
- Guru
- Devout
- Follower

Effect :
- Increases the attraction of spiritualistic ethics
- Decrease unity

Event :
- Indoctrination: pops can be removed and forcibly indoctrinated (become a spiritualist)
- Laboratory and temple sabotage.

Mafia :
Ethic : Materialisme
Job Rank :
- Don
- Capot
- "Soldier"
- Associate

Effect :
- Decreases the trade value
- Product of Consumer Goods

Event :
- Theft of credit and resources
- Assassination

Milicia:
Ethic : Militarisme
Job Rank :
- "Colonel"
- "Capitaine"
- "Lieutenant"
- "Soldier"

Effect :
- Decreases Ameties
- Create defense Armies

Event :
- Rebellion
- "Self-defense": can attack other criminal groups with arms ...

Peace movement :
Ethic : Pacisfisme
Job Rank :
- Peacemaker
- Militant
- Activist
- Protester

Effect :
- Increases the attraction of pacfisme ethics
- Decreases the defense of the planet (efficiency of military units)

Event :
- General strike: significant drop in job production.
- Demilitarization: deactivate all military buildings on the planet and their jobs. Prevent the recruitment of soldiers from this planet.

Extremist nationalism :
Ethic : Xenophobe
Job Rank :
- Lord Protector
- Protector
- Gardian
- «Racist» (no idea for name)

Effect :
- Decrease the immigration pull
- Increase unity

Event :
- Xenophobic act: decreases the happiness of “foreign” pops.
- Purge: Murder of several "aliens".

Antispeciesism :
Ethic : Xénophile
Job Rank :
- Liberator
- Militant
- Activist
- Protester

Effect :
- Decreases the production of “alien slave“ pops
- Increase the immigration pull

Event :
- Liberation: “alien slaves“ are freed and flee elsewhere.
- “Alien Slave“ rebellion

Egality :
Ethic : Egalitarisme
Job Rank :
- Liberator
- Militant
- Activist
- Protester

Effect :
- Decreases the production of “no alien slave“ pops
- Increase pop hapinesse

Event :
- Liberation: “no alien slaves“ are freed and flee elsewhere.
- “no Alien Slave“ rebellion

Supremacist :
Ethic : Authoritarisme
Job Rank :
- Dominator
- Great Master
- Master
- Superior

Effect :
- Increases the production of “slave“ pops
- Decrease pop hapinesse

Event :
- Slavery: Create slaves by force, even if the laws do not allow it.
- Coup : Take power over the planet.



Finally, here is the basic general idea. Each category has its own specificities. Several types of crime can exist and which manifests itself in several ways, sometimes by violence, others not or less (although they can also have serious consequences). Several criminal groups could possibly be present at the same time on the same planet. These groups may or may not tolerate each other, especially if their ethic is opposed.

Criminals are overall negative, but each can have its advantages. Each group also has its own possible decisions: to fight against, use them or make agreements ...
But, of course, all this comes at a price when negotiating with short and long term "criminals" ... But hey, these Xur'tho pacifists are annoying and I can not get rid of them legally ... What a tragedy if they are "annoyed" by Narathos wanting only to preserve the purity of our empire...


To fight crime, enforcers generate a “security” value.
This security value reduces the effects of criminals according to the balance of power between the value of crime and security.
Crime can never be completely eliminated, but its effects can be greatly reduced, but not totally. High-ranking criminals are also less affected by the value of security.
There is also a possibility that criminal pop will be arrested. This will shut down the criminal use of pop (or suppress it, if the conditions no longer met or if an event does not create).
An arrested pop will occupy a "prisoner" type job for a certain time. After a while, the prisoner's job will be cut, but there is a risk that he will become a criminal again.
The length of the sentence can be defined by the laws of the empire: short, long, perpetuity ... to supply camps of workers on a prison planet ...

The higher the level of crime, the more level 0 criminals there are. The more level 0 criminals there are, the more real level 1 criminal jobs created and so on. The effect is all the more important if the level of security is lower than the level of crime. Events and decisions can also harm the creation of jobs for criminals or help ... However, be careful, the higher the level of security in relation to the population, the more the population will feel oppressed (especially the egalitarians, less authoritarians) and lose happiness ...

I think that criminals should stay in there own strata, as it makes it easy to see how many there are and crime REALLY shouldn't be an issue unless something happens to disturb the status quo (criminal branch office, overpopulation, unemployment, espionage?). Also considering how important pops are, the amount of pops that would be taken up by this system would be kinda oppressive. Pops also shouldn't be imprisoned on a per-pop basis.

I do think that there should be a "radical" or "revolutionary" criminal job (and I'll likely add another comment with my interpretations of them edit: already had some in the OP), but it shouldn't be ethics dependent. Instead, all of those various factions with demands and effects should instead be part of a full internal politics update. If crime gets high enough, or the "deal with the crime lords" decision is activated, then criminal factions would appear.

 

[drawar]

The crime would not become a real problem, unless the level of security is poor or there are several factors stimulating it.
As long as the criminals are low level, their effects are relatively minor.
After that, yes, a criminal pop is one less worker, but that's why level 0 criminals would not be real pops or, if that is possible, that a pop should be allowed to have a " legal jobs ”and a“ criminal jobs ”.
This is also why the criminals might have both disadvantages and also some advantages. For example, in the mafia type, criminals cause a loss of trade value, but they also produce consumer goods.

For the number of criminal pops that such a system would generate, it would depend on the parameters we choose (how much crime a pop creates, from how much crime, a criminal job is created and etc.) and on the situation on the planet. This would allow each empire and each planet to not have the same types of criminals (especially high-level), thus creating diversity in the gameplay, according to the ethics of the pops.

The goal is not that every type of organization is present on every planet with dozens of pops each (unless the planet is really very, very populated). When a criminal job is created by the level of crime, it is assigned to one of the types, depending on certain factors. Depending on the type of pop on the planet, the various factors and a bit of randomness. The makeup of criminals can vary from planet to planet. From one empire to another. On some planets, certain criminal organizations may be well established, on others, they are almost non-existent.

For captive jobs, this could also serve to create a style of playability. There is already the possibility of creating penal colonies. Prisoners could serve as “slave” laborers even in egalitarian empires.
It could even serve as population control. The severity of a sentence could be defined by species ... Being able to actually go to life imprisonment or even the death penalty ... A means of partially serving certain species without being able to do it directly ...

The crime exists in societies even where crime rates are low, there are criminal organizations even in states with low crime rates.
The crime becomes a real problem when it gets out of state control.

Afterwards, it is sure that it is a concept to be deepened. But I think it would still be interesting to use crime to create real gameplay and not just something that causes problems because the crime rate has gone up and we haven't done enough enforcers...

 

[Tamwin5]

The crime would not become a real problem, unless the level of security is poor or there are several factors stimulating it.
As long as the criminals are low level, their effects are relatively minor.
After that, yes, a criminal pop is one less worker, but that's why level 0 criminals would not be real pops or, if that is possible, that a pop should be allowed to have a " legal jobs ”and a“ criminal jobs ”.
This is also why the criminals might have both disadvantages and also some advantages. For example, in the mafia type, criminals cause a loss of trade value, but they also produce consumer goods.

For the number of criminal pops that such a system would generate, it would depend on the parameters we choose (how much crime a pop creates, from how much crime, a criminal job is created and etc.) and on the situation on the planet. This would allow each empire and each planet to not have the same types of criminals (especially high-level), thus creating diversity in the gameplay, according to the ethics of the pops.

The goal is not that every type of organization is present on every planet with dozens of pops each (unless the planet is really very, very populated). When a criminal job is created by the level of crime, it is assigned to one of the types, depending on certain factors. Depending on the type of pop on the planet, the various factors and a bit of randomness. The makeup of criminals can vary from planet to planet. From one empire to another. On some planets, certain criminal organizations may be well established, on others, they are almost non-existent.

For captive jobs, this could also serve to create a style of playability. There is already the possibility of creating penal colonies. Prisoners could serve as “slave” laborers even in egalitarian empires.
It could even serve as population control. The severity of a sentence could be defined by species ... Being able to actually go to life imprisonment or even the death penalty ... A means of partially serving certain species without being able to do it directly ...

The crime exists in societies even where crime rates are low, there are criminal organizations even in states with low crime rates.
The crime becomes a real problem when it gets out of state control.

Afterwards, it is sure that it is a concept to be deepened. But I think it would still be interesting to use crime to create real gameplay and not just something that causes problems because the crime rate has gone up and we haven't done enough enforcers...

If there aren't going to be many pops actually as criminals, I don't think you need 4 jobs for each ethic. Heck, even just 1 per ethic I think is overkill. I also disagree with the premise of making the type of criminal organizations be ethics based. Now multiple types of crime is fine, and having multiple types at once is fine as well (if a bit more work). But the distinction should be organized crime families vs government corruption and white collar crime vs back alley mugging and drug dealing. Not idealogical movements that go past the law. That said, I've love to see some ethics based crime events, stuff like the mass killing of "supposed aliens/alien lovers" by xenophobes or liberated slaves by egalitarians/xenophiles.

Crime should not be a core mechanic. It currently serves as an auxiliary mechanic to planet management, and while I'd love to see it tied into more systems, it should stay in a supporting role.

 

[drawar]

The different ranks represent the level of implantation of the criminal organization. And each rank has its specificity. The highest ranks are only present on highly criminalized worlds (or highly populated for the less criminalized) or potentially following agreements made between the empire and the organization.
Afterwards, it's personal, I prefer to have different types of jobs for the ambience than to have generic criminals.

In fact, ethically based criminal organizations does not prevent government corruption, theft and etc. It can serve their interests. After that, nothing prevents the creation of a generic criminal organization or unaffiliated petty criminals (see what these replace rank 0 of organizations based on ethics), or even nationalist organizations engaging in terrorism (armed or not , pacifists preferring to resort to "non-violent") means against the invader.

The goal is not to make crime an essential mechanism, you could just continue to fight against it by strengthening the police. Some ethics, traits, civic and etc. could also help decrease crime for those preferring little to interact with.